Some pictures from the Cres-Lošinj archipelago

[Mario Schweiger]

I've followed the thread just now. Really great observations! What I must add in this snake dominated forum is the importance of the records for Testudo reproduction. It is probably the most threatened herp species on the Island (maybe beside coronella).

++1

[Berislav Horvatic]

What I must add in this snake dominated forum...

Snake-dominated? Thanks G/god it is! Thomas, have you become a "sissy", or just playing an "objective biologist"?!
Come to your senses, is catching a viper the same as finding a Testudo hermanni...? (OK, OK, they're endangered,
or threatened, whichever - although I don't see actually why they should be so much threatened there in particular,
on the island of Cres... What is the actual threat?)
Just kidding. You know me, so just don't answer - regarding the snakes. But if you have some arguments regarding
Testudo hermanni and its being "threatened", please feel free to do.
As for Coronella austriaca, it's obviously rare (found three times up to now), but does it also mean "threatened"?

[Ruggero M.]

I would like to know your opinions about these words:
1) Note added in proof: In an e-mail message to
J. HILL (Wolkersdorf) on January 27, 2003, the zoologist
and experienced snake keeper Dr. Rainer FESSER (Großklein)
reports on snake observations he and his friends
had made on the Islands of Cres, Lošinj and Unije.
Vipera ammodytes ammodytes (LINNAEUS, 1758):
Cres – between Cres and Beli, 1975 but also in the
karst area in the southern part of Cres Island [obs.
FESSER]. “All looked like individuals from Pag and
Krk, rather small, lightweighted, in various shades of
grey, not very contrasting in pattern. They were hard to
find and even harder to catch in the karst. People there
knew this snake. Not only did they tell me about the
occurrence of ‘Poskok’ (= V. ammodytes) as is usual on
the islands, but also reported on the occurrence of
harmful snakes characterized by a horn on the tip of the
snout and a red tail”. Hierophis viridiflavus carbonarius
(BONAPARTE, 1833): Lošinj – W of the road from Mali
Lošinj to Veli Lošinj, July 1978, adult male [obs.
FESSER]. Cres – between Cres and Beli, 1975, adult
female, highly gravid, violated (car accident?) [obs.
FESSER]. Unije – 2001, gravid female [Photographs
made by a friend, shown to FESSER].

I've taken this text from the following article: Herpetofaunal data from Cres Island, Croatia
Herpetofaunistische Daten über die Insel Cres, Kroatien
TAMÁS TÓTH & HEINZ GRILLITSCH & BALÁZS FARKAS
& JÁNOS GÁL & GORAN SUŠIĆ

It's easy to find this article on the web.
I don't know if I've already asked this question, but my idea is the following: the observation of Fesser dates 1975. Is it not possible it's a real observation and, in the meanwhile (actually 4 decades of meanwhile... ), the ammos are totally disappeared from the island?

[Berislav Horvatic]

Dr. Rainer FESSER

Ruggero, for us the old (or "experienced") guys it's a terribly old story, with a long history at that ... Rainer Fesser
is what he is, he's found (or "found") some terribly interesting things, including V. ammodytes in the southernmost
part of Cres and V. ursinii on Mosor (east of Split), but all that had happened a very long time ago, and he had no
camera at the time... or didn't think (at the time) it was an issue deserving special attention... Difficult to judge.
I talked to him in person, when he was in Zagreb, and I even dared asking him some quite "impertinent" questions
regarding his most spectacular finds... but he very firmly and very politely "stood his ground", so I had to be polite
as well... After all, he was our guest, and we were having a nice dinner together, so... one has to shut up in time.
In summary, I don't know for sure, and noone else does either, to the best of my knowledge/estimate/opinion.

[Ruggero M.]

Thanks, Bero: it's difficult for me to understand exactly what you mind (I don't know Fesser) and it's also difficult for me to enter phsychological explanations in a language which is not mine. But I try anyway.
If a person of my knowledge says to me he is totally sure to have seen a species in one locality, and I know for sure this person is 100% able to recognize a species, and I know the character of this person, and I hear myself his tale about his finding, I can judge his tale 100% sure, even if he/she has no picture to show to me.
At the opposite side: it would be very easy to take a "fake" picture of an ammo in Cres. You take the boat to Krk, take a picture of an ammo there, und publish then the picture as "ammo of Cres". Or, even better, you take with you the ammo to Cres, and take a picture of that animal near the Campari Jama: would be this one a 100% sure proof of the existence of ammos in Cres? Surely not. A picture may mean much, but may also mean nothing at all! All depends on THE PERSON who observes something, and not on pictures.
I've seen in my life interesting and very uncommon snakes: two melanic N.tessellata in Italy (one specimen captured was totally black, the other, found DOR, was totally black with reddish throat region); captured one aesculapian snake with very keeled dorsal scales; seen very well, but unfortunately not captured, a light grey (almost white) V.aspis male with faint grey, barely visible, zig-zag markings; seen a big reddish coloured Natrix natrix, spotted only for few seconds.
I've absolutely no pictures of them, but I can remember exactly, second after second, where and what happened. Only the memory of the reddish Natrix is sometimes not "fresh", because I saw that big Natrix only for few seconds (the species determination is anyway 100% sure!), and I must think about it, I mean about "its colour", sometimes with effort, to refresh the memory, so that that rare encounter won't disappear forever from my mind.
And when I say I've seen and captured an aesculapian with keeled scales, so keeled as a Natrix, I hope you will believe me, even if I've no pictures of that animal...
And if I will read in the future that no melanic tessellata live or never lived in the province of Pavia or Genova, I know it's not true, even if the only pictures of melanic tessellata I have in my collection are from Greece.
So, what I want to say: it's sometimes more important the person, and not the picture!

[Ruggero M.]

This picture was taken by my friend Melo in a small water pond near Osor, in the south of Cres.
We think it could be an Emys, but I'm not an expert of turtles, and I don't know if Emys orbicularis is a rare species on Cres or not: anyway, it's the only water turtle we have managed to spot...

Picture of Carmelo Batti (Melo), taken near Osor

[Alexandre Roux]

This picture was taken by my friend Melo in a small water pond near Osor, in the south of Cres.
We think it could be an Emys, but I'm not an expert of turtles, and I don't know if Emys orbicularis is a rare species on Cres or not: anyway, it's the only water turtle we have managed to spot...

aaa.jpg

Looks like it is !

[Mario Schweiger]

I've taken this text from the following article: Herpetofaunal data from Cres Island, Croatia
Herpetofaunistische Daten über die Insel Cres, Kroatien
TAMÁS TÓTH & HEINZ GRILLITSCH & BALÁZS FARKAS
& JÁNOS GÁL & GORAN SUŠIĆ

It's easy to find this article on the web.
I don't know if I've already asked this question, but my idea is the following: the observation of Fesser dates 1975. Is it not possible it's a real observation and, in the meanwhile (actually 4 decades of meanwhile... ), the ammos are totally disappeared from the island?

hard to comment!
Rainer FESSER is the only one (as far as I know), who observed Vipera ammodytes on Cres archipelago!

Unfortunately, (old) publications on the nature (fauna and flora) on these islands are rare, in contrast to those from neighboring Krk.
But even Alberto FORTIS in his: Saggio d'osservationi sopra l'isola di Cherso ed Osero, Venezia, 1771 wrote, that these islands are free of vipers (and tells the Gaudentius story).

No idea on FESSER's observations of Hierophis (viridiflavus) carbonarius too.

[Berislav Horvatic]

A picture may mean much, but may also mean nothing at all! All depends on THE PERSON
who observes something, and not on pictures.

Exactly my point.

[Berislav Horvatic]

No idea on FESSER's observations of Hierophis (viridiflavus) carbonarius too.

You mean, on Cres? (Well, there might have been an independent confirmation of that, by
someone I tend to believe, but that's a story to be carefully reconsidered. Let's leave it at
that, for the moment.)
The same holds for his claims about Malpolon insignitus on Krk... unlike yours. You've really
found a DOR malpolon on Krk yourself, we know where, we know your opinion/interpretation
regarding this find, everything is clear. And you never... So, we believe you, photo or not.
As Ruggero said, "All depends on THE PERSON who observes something, and not on pictures."
Of course it does. Sapienti sat.