Vammo by night in April...

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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:05 am

OK, OK, thank you, but you really don't have to shout like that, I just wanted to hear a tiny whisper from
you - but an explicit (= straight) one: yes or no. So I got it, albeit in RED ...
Remember, the great master Yoda never raised his voice at his disciples, may the Force/Kraft (sauce/Saft)
be with him...

But, much more importantly, would you have any comment regarding the nocturnal activity of this vammo
in early spring? I do know you as one of the sceptics ("nonbelievers") on that matter, for quite a long time,
so...? Finally convinced? Disappointed? Still disbelieving? Accepting? Quite easy & straightforward questions,
mind you, so smileys would not be acceptable (by me, at least) instead of a straight & simple answer...
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Ruggero M. » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:21 pm

Years ago I found a male in activity, crossing a road, at night in Greece: it was may, and, if I remember well, early may. 8-)
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:51 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:Years ago I found a male in activity, crossing a road, at night in Greece: it was may, and, if I remember well, early may. 8-)

Well, I suppose our admin Mario will not at all be happy about that, as one of the persistent "nonbelievers"... But
I think the time has come for him to change his opinion... The reliable DATA have been amassing, for years, so, ...

Thank you, Ruggero, for the "support" - it's not easy to "tough it out" with the admin, but I still do believe in his reason...
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Mario Schweiger » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:45 am

Bero, I'm not that "nonbeliever", I only havn't observed this (and my friends too).
Maybe the point is, we like it much more to have our beers after getting dark instead of crawling through thorns and over rocks.
Mario (Admin)

Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:39 pm

Michael & Mario,
I fully agree with what both of you wrote above. Period. (That is, ROGER & OUT - regarding that...)
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:00 pm

Michael Glass wrote:Long story short, I can understand the skepticism and am delighted to see
such cool finds that shake a bit our picture of how vipers behave or not.

Regarding "how vipers behave or not", suppose you have V. ursinii and V. ammodytes in the same habitat, both
sympatric & syntopic, then, what would you expect, which species is more/better adapted to cold conditions?
V. ursinii, of course, one would guess... Our monitoring on the Velebit mountain has shown just the opposite:
V. ammodytes had, on the average, lower body temperatures and tolerated lower air temperatures for their
activity
than V. ursinii - the "genuinely montane" species, one would say, while Vammos are the "generalists"...
But no, Vammos have actually proved to be the "early risers", while those "lazy and spoiled" Usiniis waited till
the sun is high enough and the grass gets warm enough...
One could (and probably will) think of many reasons for this "surprise" (?) e.g., maybe their food is not an "early
riser", so why should they start too early, if there's no point... But, mind you, food is not the only reason to get
up from one's sleep in the (chilly) morning, and "tough it up", so, maybe this, maybe that, ... Still a lot of
research & thinking & rethinking waiting to be done...
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Mladen Zadravec » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:04 pm

I'm here, I'm here! It's not that I forgot, I just haven't been home... and when I was, I was either resting or doing stuff I needed to do between field work. :oops:

You more-or-less know the short version of the story, and quite a bit of the longer variant. So I'll just fill in some details. We set up the light traps between 19:30 and 20:00. Although conditions weren't ideal, we immediately started getting cool stuff. Including this little fella, at 20:19, right by a pyramid.
Image

Somewhat after that, while making one of our rounds along the road, we heard the Big Guy hissing. By the time I returned with the gloves and hook, he was still hissing but we could hear him moving away... and stopped hissing! I was crazy enough to dive into the bushes, after him. By our guesstimate, he was a couple of m inside the thick vegetation, but we didn't know if he was on branches or on the ground (the road was elevated in that part). I reached the spot, couldn't find him anywhere! I checked branches, looked under stones (those I could move)- nothing! Toni decided to give up, I waited for a little while, perfectly still and quiet... a gut feeling. Then he started hissing! About 2 m behind me (even further away from the road). And he was moving away from me. It wasn't easy, but I was certainly gaining on him. I reached a big, dense rose bush, heard him inside- not moving... then I saw him: he was BIG, loosely coiled up, facing me, probably knowing there was no way I could reach him in there. If I decided to dive there and then after him, I'm 100% sure he would've been out of my reach by approx. 10-20 cm. I started pushing the branches away, but he didn't start retreating until it was too late. Knowing it was going to be my only chance, I dove after him... pushing a few more branches with the right side of my body, and caught him mid-body, at 20:57. Since I didn't have a bag, I had to hold him and push out of the bushes and then climb the steep slope back to the road. Toni and I were both in shock. :shock: :D

Image

We returned to the car and measured his temp., the air temp and his lengths. His temp. was 14.-something, air temp. was 12.6°C if I remember correctly. (Toni wrote them down, he's in the field now so I can't ask him) It was also windy at times. I filmed his release, it will be on YouTube when I get the chance to edit & upload...

The Big Guy was the first (and only) live member of the species we found for the 10×10 km square. The longissimus and two frog species that also "visited" our light traps were all the only records of those species for the square, for both days we spent there.

Image

So, no more of the "why are you going to catch bugs at night...?!?" comments, since the method obviously also works for herps! Ok, it works spectacularly once in a blue moon... but it works. ;) :mrgreen:

but Mladen actually has to relax not from this find, but from his subsequent trip to Modena, Italy,...

And the field trips after Modena... ;) Came back from one yesterday, actually... :)

To the best of my knowledge, so far orchids have never produced an effect like this one... But never say never, wait and see... hope...

Bero, not sure if this will be impressive enough for this (to me it is), but yesterday Ljiljana B.-V., orchid lady and our mutual friend, was with her husband at her orchid site near her home (also our ammodytes site), looking for orchids. They found a shed skin of ammodytes and at least 4-6 males near and/or on it- moving about, basking, twitching... they observed them at a distance of only a couple of metres, for quite some time. They even filmed them. The snakes were mostly non-responsive to their presence. Today Ljiljana visited the same spot with Petra Š. (employee of the Public Institution for the County) and saw the same thing today... and even an attempted mating of a male & female.
I only saw part of the first video, I haven't yet had the time to watch both of them completely yet, but it seems to be quite an interesting encounter, and one I'm fairly envious of! :)
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Ilian Velikov » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:50 am

Regarding nocturnal behaviour of ammodytes > I think Aleksandar posted this photo here as well but I couldn't find it:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aleksandar_simovic/8368472858/in/set-72157632524866004

Nocturnal and arboreal :o
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby miguel santos » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:22 pm

Well I'm sure you guys know better then me if it is a male or not. I don't see many Ammodytes arround here :D
I also take pictures of bugs when I see one.... I can understand that one will probably see more bugs then vipers, You increase your chances of taking nice pictures with such a combination....
Good work guys,

Miguel
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Re: Vammo by night in April...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:19 pm

I only saw part of the first video, I haven't yet had the time to watch both of them completely
yet, but it seems to be quite an interesting encounter, and one I'm fairly envious of!

Give us the movie!!!!!! Give us the movieeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, why do you, for the following weekend, plan a group visit to your/our local Vammo site in the environs of Zagreb,
where you/we have already done (almost) everything that could have been done - namely, your diploma thesis - instead
of suggesting us to go THERE, where the REAL THINGS are just being underway these days...???!!! (Orchids or not...)
(Okay, okay, you can just give me a phonecall, you don't have to explain that to just everyone in Europe & al. ...)
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