Croatia, April 2016

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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Mon May 23, 2016 4:07 pm

Bert Vandebosch wrote:The picture of Hierophis viridiflavus seems to be a Hierophis gemonensis.

Hmmm... Don't think so.
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon May 23, 2016 4:10 pm

Bert Vandebosch wrote:The picture of Hierophis viridiflavus seems to be a Hierophis gemonensis.

I would rather bet on a young individual of Hierophis viridiflavus carbonarius.
The locality (even a broad one) would also be helpful for the decision.
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon May 23, 2016 4:31 pm

Bert Vandebosch wrote:The picture of Hierophis viridiflavus seems to be a Hierophis gemonensis.


Mario Schweiger wrote:not sure.
do you have another pic of that specimen?


Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Hmmm... Don't think so.


I would rather bet on a young individual of Hierophis viridiflavus carbonarius.


Why? Nobody is giving any reasons for their argument...

For me it is impossible to determine without a top view of the head.
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Bert Vandebosch » Mon May 23, 2016 6:43 pm

You're right Ilian.
I'm certainly not sure, that's why I said "seems".
Just if you would have presented this picture to me without a name, I would say gemonensis. Probably because of my lack in experience with young carbonarias.
I may have misjudged the size of the snake.
I would expect less of this brown and yellow in young viridiflavus and more of bluish light striping on the flank. In this picture I thougth to see white speckling on the flanks which reminds me more of gemonensis.

Anyway, very interesting so I would love to see more pictures ;)
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Mario Schweiger » Mon May 23, 2016 6:57 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:Why? Nobody is giving any reasons for their argument...
For me it is impossible to determine without a top view of the head.


because I dont trust the color. It sees, picture has been taken in early or late sunlight, therefore this orange touch.

but the contrast between the "white" eye-ring and the main color of the head seems to be high, what points more to v. carbonarius.

Ilian, do you really think, you can determine by the markings on top of head (points, stripes, etc.)?
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Mon May 23, 2016 7:40 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:
Ilian Velikov wrote:Why? Nobody is giving any reasons for their argument...
For me it is impossible to determine without a top view of the head.


because I dont trust the color. It sees, picture has been taken in early or late sunlight, therefore this orange touch.

but the contrast between the "white" eye-ring and the main color of the head seems to be high, what points more to v. carbonarius.

Ilian, do you really think, you can determine by the markings on top of head (points, stripes, etc.)?


What he said!
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon May 23, 2016 8:45 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:because I dont trust the color. It sees, picture has been taken in early or late sunlight, therefore this orange touch.


I agree with that completely.

Mario Schweiger wrote:Ilian, do you really think, you can determine by the markings on top of head (points, stripes, etc.)?


I can't be 100% sure but I'd definitely have a much better guess than from this photo. What I've noticed is that (very) often the pattern of the two is rather different but is also very confusing and hard to notice. I've highlighted the features on the image below to try and show what I mean. It's a bit hard to explain with words. This is not always the case and these features don't always occur together but it seems quite consistent. Maybe somebody can find photo(s) to prove me wrong. I'm always up for a test, it would be interesting to test myself and see if I can get it right each time ;)

007_head_hierophis_viridiflavus_gemonensis_2.jpg
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon May 23, 2016 9:35 pm

Just give me the locality - I really don't understand why that should be so hidden (as it has been).
Where, on the eastern Adriatic coast, one can find quite a lot of H. viridiflavus carbonarius and
not a single H. gemonensis? My first guess would be Istria... So why keep it so secret?
After all, the brown(ish) variety of H. viridiflavus carbonarius is quite common in Istria, that much
I do know for sure. And the southernmost border of the H. v. c. distribution is at Karlobag (not Senj
- that's been outdated quite a few years ago).
OK, this was NOT in Dalmatia, for sure. So, where was it? It would help much more than any details
of the pholidosis we actually don't see...
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon May 23, 2016 10:37 pm

Berislav, nobody mentioned anything about pholidosis and I think Mario was asking generally if I think I could distinguish between the two species by head markings.
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Re: Croatia, April 2016

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon May 23, 2016 10:53 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:Berislav, nobody mentioned anything about pholidosis and I think Mario was asking
generally if I think I could distinguish between the two species by head markings.

What are the "head markings", if not the pholidosis on the head? Spots, lines, colouration
- apart from the scales? Enlighten me, please. (No, I'm not teasing you, or anybody else.
I'd really like to understand.)

Anyhow, I still think that the locality could tell one more than the "head markings" - in
this particular case, and with only one (inadequate) photo of the head.
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