Croatia, April 2016

[Ilian Velikov]

Collins English Dictionary
pholidosis (ˌfɒlɪˈdəʊsɪs) 
noun
the layout or disposition of the scales of reptiles

So the term has nothing to do with the markings.

Anyhow, I still think that the locality could tell one more than the "head markings" - in
this particular case, and with only one (inadequate) photo of the head.

This might be true but it still doesn't mean we can't talk about other stuff related to the subject, does it? Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a discussion. Besides, there's nothing better than determining the species of an animal by looking at the animal. Location is helpful but what if it's a species that has never been recorded in that location before?

[Ilian Velikov]

BTW, another difference between the two species is supposed to be the presence of white/light spots at the top and bottom of each scale in gemonensis although I'm not sure if these are always missing in viridiflavus juveniles...? If that's reliable it would make the individual in question gemonensis as I can clearly see the white spots in this photo.

[Berislav Horvatic]

Just give me the locality. If it's e.g. the Vrana lake or anything in Dalmatia, then it's NOT a
H. viridiflavus, for sure. Well, OK, 99.99%. Notwithstanding any spots on the head.
And give me/us further pictures. I'm sure they didn't make just a single one. So, let's wait.

Location is helpful but what if it's a species that has never been recorded in that location before?

Yes, yes, IN PRINCIPLE. But we are not talking about some remote part of Africa, where "anything
is possible", or could be, due to our ignorance. You'll never find a Vipera berus in Dalmatia, and
you know that. There can be surprises, but not limitless, irrespective of anything.

[Mario Schweiger]

Ilian,

lets try to find a (easy, in field) diagnostic character between these 2 species.

Here is one (DOR) gemo, from the old road Virpazar - Bar, Montenegro (April 2006, for sure out of viri range).
But the markings fit for viridiflavus?

Will try to find more pics

[Martin Ertner]

I'm sorry I can't be online everyday.
For Berislav - it was on Istria.
It was young one - so we tought that it was young viridiflavus. Unfortunately I haven't got any other photos of this individual.
We saw about 20 adult individuals of H. viridiflavus carbonarius on this place and one this young one. So I think that it is viridiflavus..

[Ilian Velikov]

Yes, yes, IN PRINCIPLE. But we are not talking about some remote part of Africa, where "anything
is possible", or could be, due to our ignorance.

Anything, is possible due to our ignorance I'm sure Europe still holds some surprises (caused by either our ignorance as lack of knowledge or ignorance as introducing species outside their known range, etc.). Who would've thought they'd find cave salamanders in Germany?

Mario, no need for other photos. This DOR individual has very "viridiflavus-like" pattern indeed. That's why I said "I can't be 100% sure", and I never said there were "easy" features. But still you can't deny one would have a better chance of determination if we had a view of the head pattern. Also I still think the example of patterns I showed in the two species is more or less relevant in a lot of cases.

So all and all are there REALLY any morphological features by which to distinguish the juveniles of these two species or not? What do you guys think about those white scale spots that I mentioned?

[Mario Schweiger]

What do you guys think about those white scale spots that I mentioned?

not sure.

Here are two youngsters from Istria. I'm not sure for 100%.

But for this one, I think viridiflavus, because of the larger dark spots in 1st 3rd of body

and this one is from north of Pula.

[Ilian Velikov]

Mario, my guess would be:

1st one - gemonensis - head pattern (collar well merged in the middle), heavy white spotting on the scales, black spots on the throat(underside), and those distinctive dark spots on the fore body are supposed to be a feature of gemonensis, from what I read.

2nd one - viridiflavus - head pattern (collar barely merging), somewhat fewer white spots on scales, smaller and less distinctive dark spots on fore body.

[Alexandre Roux]

Mario, my guess would be:

1st one - gemonensis - head pattern (collar well merged in the middle), heavy white spotting on the scales, black spots on the throat(underside), and those distinctive dark spots on the fore body are supposed to be a feature of gemonensis, from what I read.

2nd one - viridiflavus - head pattern (collar barely merging), somewhat fewer white spots on scales, smaller and less distinctive dark spots on fore body.

I think exactly the same ! 1st isn't H.viridiflavus for sure !

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Mario, my guess would be:
1st one - gemonensis - head pattern (collar well merged in the middle), heavy white spotting on the scales, black spots on the throat(underside), and those distinctive dark spots on the fore body are supposed to be a feature of gemonensis, from what I read.
2nd one - viridiflavus - head pattern (collar barely merging), somewhat fewer white spots on scales, smaller and less distinctive dark spots on fore body.

I think exactly the qame ! 1st isn't H.viridiflavus for sure !

Me too, especially about the first, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Ilian, the white spots are also visible in subadult viridiflavus for sure (see p. 362 in our book ).