An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

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An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Mario Schweiger » Tue May 31, 2016 3:43 pm

in the vicinity of Rovinj (Istria, Croatia).
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Ruggero M. » Tue May 31, 2016 7:42 pm

Dear Mario, I've read the article, which speaks of "the ancient Po Valley however the extinct adders".
I must say I've read on an italian forum (a couple of years ago if I remember well) about a finding of V.berus in the Po Valley near Ferrara. A picture of the adder was also present. If that post was true (I can try to find it again), this means that that population is not fully extinct!

(P.S. The problem with the Forum persists: I've tried to answer to you in the 3D of Cres yesterday or the day before, and I had uploaded 10 pictures or more, and then the system crashed for hours and everything was lost :cry: )

This is the interesting post: http://www.sanguefreddo.net/forum/altri ... -o-marasso
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue May 31, 2016 9:06 pm

Not concerning the very find of Vipera berus in an extremely unexpected place like Istria, but regarding
some really strange statements in the publication about the distribution of the subspecies in Croatia, I
feel obliged to say the following:

These authors designate the border between the nomotypical subspecies and Vipera berus bosniensis
approx. as follows: Snežnik Mountain – Kapela Mountain – Varaždin.

Varaždin??!! No way, not nearly so. Have a better look at the distribution map in the cited publication.
Anyhow, at Varaždin one does find a borderline, but between V. ammodytes ammodytes (West) and the
lowland V. berus bosniensis (East). No V. berus berus there.
Some 14 km west of Varaždin the hilly region, inhabited by V. ammodytes (and no V. berus), ends quite
abruptly, and a lowland plain begins, stretching to the east, towards the river Drava (Drau). Then, some
30 km east of Varaždin, the “first” (or "westernmost") V. berus bosniensis site was found, quite recently
at that, by Igor Vilaj. What’s in between, noone knows (yet), but the nearest V. berus berus habitats are
very, very far from that region.

A wide overlapping zone between the two subspecies can be found along this border.

No way. There is NO overlapping zone at all, let alone a wide one. Not a single spot. The two subspecies
of V. berus are very nicely separated from each other by a wide enough "stripe" of V. ammodytes habitat.
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Mario Schweiger » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:38 pm

sorry for the wrong distribution data :oops:
I mixed up the border between V. b. berus and V. b. bosniensis with "old and new" data ( open and solid cyrles).
But I'm wondering, why none of the reviewers saw this :(

Overlapping zone:
There are no biochemical data on the distribution of the ssp., as far as I know (at least none of small scale distribution). But, by different people, for example both ssp. occur in Slovenia?
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:32 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:But I'm wondering, why none of the reviewers saw this :(

The right question indeed. I'm afraid I can guess the answer... unfortunately. But I'll remain silent.

Overlapping zone:
There are no biochemical data on the distribution of the ssp., as far as I know (at least none of
small scale distribution). But, by different people, for example both ssp. occur in Slovenia?

V. b. bosniensis lives in humid plains, at low altitudes, at most up to cca. 200 m a.s.l., while V. b. berus inhabits
mountains from cca. 1000 m a.s.l. and higher. They simply have no chance to come into contact with each other.
In Croatia you'll never find any V. berus at, say, 500 m a.s.l.
Both subspecies occur in Slovenia as well, and the situation is most probably quite analogous. If you look at their
distribution map, you'll find V. berus in the northwestern and southwestern parts of the country (but they don't
specify the subspecies), with a wide E-W gap separating them. Then a really wide gap opens to the east, and
then again V. berus only in the very northeastern corner (Prekmurje). The latter were discovered quite recently
and are V. b. bosniensis, 99% sure. I was there twice, and have seen one of them with my own eyes. Also, the
habitat is very much telling - a humid lowland along the river Mura, with just the right vegetation. It's just the
extension of the big Croatian (lowland) population into Slovenia. In the same way as the rather localized Croatian
population of V. b. berus (in Gorski Kotar & Kapela) is just an “extension” of the much larger western Slovenian
population into Croatia. Populations just don’t respect the state borders, but can be tracked down...
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Rok Grzelj » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:43 pm

Just for the info...lowest finding of Vipera berus IN SW Slovenia is at Malinišče,Osilnica at 293 m.a.s.l...just some meters from the Croatian border.
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:13 pm

Rok Grzelj wrote:Just for the info...lowest finding of Vipera berus IN SW Slovenia is at Malinišče, Osilnica,
at 293 m.a.s.l... just some meters from the Croatian border.

Well, taking into account all that has been known, they should belong to the V. berus berus subspecies
(the "Alpine" or "Italian" clade)... and as such they would clearly violate my simple "rule of the thumb"
regarding their exclusive preference of really high altitudes, above 1000 m a.s.l.... What can I say...
The V. b. berus north of the river Kupa being more German-like (that is, more "liberal" when it comes
to altitude) than those south of it? Just across a river? Of course not, but I've no solution at hand...
(yet).
But I would still maintain that V. b. berus and V. b. bosniensis do not overlap, anywhere. The argumentation
would be probably too extensive (and too boring for most of the people here)... so let's drop it, at least
for the time being.

Of course, back to the main issue of the publication, the find of V. berus ssp. in Istria... Does look like
a bosniensis, or even an aspis... but quite a lot of V. berus look like that, irrespective of the clade or
subspecies... (If you don't believe me, ask Konrad Mebert - he had shown me his "secret folder" with all
the "unbelievable" variations of V. b. berus...)

BTW,

V.b.berus_vs_V.b.bosniensis.jpg
V.b.berus_vs_V.b.bosniensis.jpg (92.79 KiB) Viewed 9271 times

Not decisive, even all of it taken together. DNA analysis badly needed.
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:39 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:V. b. bosniensis lives in humid plains, at low altitudes, at most up to cca. 200 m a.s.l., while V. b. berus inhabits
mountains from cca. 1000 m a.s.l. and higher. They simply have no chance to come into contact with each other.
In Croatia you'll never find any V. berus at, say, 500 m a.s.l.

To be quite honest, there is a counterexample, the finds of V. b. bosniensis on the mt. Papuk, amidst the Slavonian plane.
It was found at five localities, all of them between some 150 and 450 m a.s.l. – but no higher than that. Also, all of them
happen to be at some of the local watercourses (or some other waterbodies), which are quite abundant on that particular
mountain, even surprisingly so.
Papuk (with the summit at 953 m a.s.l.) is “sandwiched” between the valleys of Sava and Drava, both being the “natural”
lowland habitats of V. b. bosniensis, so obviously some of them had climbed a little bit higher than “200 m a.s.l.”, along
the available local watercourses, but NOT TOO high.
Also, there are no competing (?) V. ammodytes in Slavonia to "block" or "check" their ascent to the local hills...
And the nearest V. b. berus population (in the Kapela region) is some 200 kilometers away, so, no chance of any kind of
"overlap" and/or mixing...
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Mario Schweiger » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:21 am

Bero,
and what do you think about this one? I know the exact location ;)

vbbSt2.jpg
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Re: An unexpected location of Vipera berus ........

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:55 pm

I don't think anything, except "a beautiful animal and a very good photo".
Looks like a V. b. bosniensis, of course, but one may never know...
So, what is your real question?
Regarding "the exact location" which you know, and I don't, I can only say
it's not a lowland bosniensis. (Now you guess how on earth I could guess
that...)
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