Ligurian herping

Ligurian herping

Postby Robin Duborget » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:20 pm

Hello,

The last week-end I went with my mife and a friend in northern Italy, near Genua.

We had two main targets : Salamandrina perspicillata and Rana italica.

First, in a small cave, near a litle stream.
A lot off Rana italica, with one Speleomantes strinatii :
Rana italica 1(forum).jpg

Rana italica 2(forum).jpg

Rana italica 3(forum).jpg


Speleomantes strinatii 1(forum).jpg


Some small crickets of the subfamily Gryllomorphinae, probably the endemic species Discoptila clauseri :
Gryllomorphinae sp 1.jpg


And a little bat (Do you know what bat it is ?) :
Bat (forum).jpg


After this cave we went to a Salamandrina site and we were very succesful.
Behind a little stone on a leafy forest floor I found a little Speleomantes. And when I reached down for taking pictures of it I saw three little Salamandrina in a small crevice of a big rock :shock: :
Speleomantes strinatii 2(forum).jpg


Salamandrina 2.(forum).jpg

Salamandrina 3(forum).jpg

Salamandrina 4(forum).jpg

Salamandrina 5(forum).jpg

Salamandrina 6(forum).jpg


On the way back (a litle forest road) we found a common toad (Bufo spinosus I think) and sadly, a dead Salamandra salamandra terrestris :
Bufo spinosus(forum).jpg


Apart from the poor Salamandra we have been verry lucky, especially for the Salamandrina. I think that the warm temperatures and the rain play in our favour.
Without the help of some people from the forum, I think that we would surely not have this luck ! So, thanks guys :D

I hope that I had not posted too much pictures !
Robin
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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Mario Schweiger » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:29 pm

Nice pictues.
Especially the R. italica on the sinter rocks.
Never mind Robin, it is impossible to post to much pics :P
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Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:20 pm

Salamandrina rules!!!

That Bufo should not be spinosus overthere.
(Fig. 3 in http://molevol.cmima.csic.es/carranza/pdf/Porta_2012_Bufo.pdf)

Now who broke 'my' circle of trust told you about that cave (which I think I know...)... !? ;) :twisted:
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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Robin Duborget » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:50 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:That Bufo should not be spinosus overthere.
(Fig. 3 in http://molevol.cmima.csic.es/carranza/pdf/Porta_2012_Bufo.pdf)

Now who broke 'my' circle of trust told you about that cave (which I think I know...)... !? ;) :twisted:


For the Bufo it's what I thought but it's 82 mm long and the parotoid glands are not parallel :
IMG_1631(forum).jpg


I'm a natural science teacher, it's pretty trustable ! I definetly can't be a poacher, it's incompatible !
I think that the person who gave me the location of the cave is the person that gave it to you ;)

I'm agree with you, there is a lot of people which harvest amphibians and we need to be cautious. But protection is also knowledge ! If amphibian sites are just know by few herpetologist tourists they can't be protected.
I'ts my opinion ;)
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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:04 pm

Robin Duborget wrote:For the Bufo it's what I thought but it's 82 mm long and the parotoid glands are not parallel :

Well, there you go - you've corroborated my doubts concerning the acceptance of spinosus as a species ;) . That being said, I'd trust range over morphology, so regardless of those parotoids, all should be (s)sp. bufo in that area.

I hearby invite all forum members to look through there toad photos to assess the validity of this criterion =>
http://www.ctoz.nl/vol82/nr04/a01
(see Figure 6)

Robin Duborget wrote:it's pretty trustable !

Don't worry, I meant nothing personal. It's just that over the years I, regrettable, have become more cautious to hand out site details to people I don't know.

Robin Duborget wrote:I think that the person who gave me the location of the cave is the person that gave it to you ;)

Then I'm relieved, thanks!

Robin Duborget wrote:If amphibian sites are just know by few herpetologist tourists they can't be protected.

Of course.
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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:04 pm

I wonder how a (soft) push-and-pull of the toad's skin might affect the position of those glands...
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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Robin Duborget » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:19 pm

I'm agree with you for the problem of Bufo spinosus and Bufo bufo. If we follow the caracteristics in the original publication it's a Bufo spinosus, in the range of Bufo bufo ....
I will let you try the push-and-pull ;)

In the same matter what do you think about Bufotes balearicus ?

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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:25 am

Robin Duborget wrote:In the same matter what do you think about Bufotes balearicus ?

Putting it simple, Bufo spinosus is actually at the moment more/better substantiated than Bufotes balearicus.

I accept that there's a species-level split between Europe and N Africa => viridis versus boulengeri (which has been proven in a context where the first was called balearicus and the second siculus - http://vipersgarden.at/PDF_files/PDF-2287.pdf).

Further splits (siculus from boulengeri , variabilis and balearicus from viridis) are imho weakly established at the moment.
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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Robin Duborget » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:47 am

This publication is very interesting, especially with the cross-breeding experiment, thanks ! We don't see that very often in species description nowadays.

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Re: Ligurian herping

Postby Matthijs Hollanders » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:56 am

Cool!
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