Spain spring of 2013

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

A study shows that only 4% of Rana temporaria may have a so small gold edging

This is very interesting! Could you refer me/us to that study?

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Can you please explain what characters you use to reveal that iberica is temporaria?

Longer and rounder snout, 'flat' and rather pale colouration, dorsolateral folds approaching each other in the shoulder area, hind legs relatively short, ... are things pointing towards temporaria and ruling iberica out imho. Thus, iberica has a sharp and short snout, usually darker and often spotted or speckled pattern, spaced dorsolateral folds and long hind legs.

I have to admit it's hard to put into black-and-white criteria, but I feel rather confident... If anyone has another opinion, I'd be interested.

BTW, don't let anyone tell you what level of nonsense should or shouldn't go into your reports

[Alexandre Roux]

That a french study you can find here: http://www.les-snats.com/aire/enquete_rdrt.htm
The only problem is that the study is based on a sample of less than 30 R.temporaria.

You can find other files there: http://files.biolovision.net/www.faune- ... brunes.pdf

[Magnus Karlsson]

Jeroen thanks again!

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

The gold edging around the eye

I get from the link that "eye" should be "pupil"...

Alexandre, while interesting, the limited geographical spread troubles me even more than the limited sample size. The concerning area of France/Spain/Pyrenees is known for its weird long-legged tempo's. This, together with the fact that Spanish dalmatina sightings are limited, is exactly why I am in doubt. Nevertheless, this specific animal looks indeed a lot like a dalmatina. No other pics, Magnus?

[Alexandre Roux]

The gold edging around the eye

I get from the link that "eye" should be "pupil"...

Alexandre, while interesting, the limited geographical spread troubles me even more than the limited sample size. The concerning area of France/Spain/Pyrenees is known for its weird long-legged tempo's. This, together with the fact that Spanish dalmatina sightings are limited, is exactly why I am in doubt. Nevertheless, this specific animal looks indeed a lot like a dalmatina. No other pics, Magnus?

I'm sorry my english is not really perfect and some words go out of my mind when I need them !

I agree with you to say that this picture might not be enough to know if this is dalmatina or not.
If you don't check many criterion with theses species, Spain or not, you can not affirm if it is or not ! (But it seems to be especially true there !)

And I also agree to say that these study is too localized to be widespread (but that's a document that can be compare if the same study starts anywhere else).

[Magnus Karlsson]

I have one more image of the "dalmatina" I doubt it will help but I will post it anyway.



Cheers!

[Magnus Karlsson]

On the topic on temporaria and dalmatina. Can hybridization be ruled out between those taxa?

Cheers!

[Alexandre Roux]

It still looks like a Rana dalmatina to me, but I don't think this picture can decide...
I didn't hear about hybridation (but maybe there is...).

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

OK, to me, that's a clear enough, if not verrrry typical, dalmatina (look at the head shape and the huuuuge legs).
((If you would be prepared to PM or e-mail me the exact spot, I could have it checked by some experts.))

Can hybridization be ruled out between those taxa?

Not a lot is know, but I remember reading that it is very rare in brown frogs. You could argue that this hybrids might go unnoticed, but especially with temporaria I think the phenotypical plasticity is so vast, that it is a much more likely explanation for "weird-looking" frogs than hybridisation.

Here you can see that there's quite some distance between these species, making hybridisation less likely =>
http://www.mvences.de/p/p1/Vences_A46.pdf