Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:05 pm

BTW, with Mario invoking Werner's fingers (and his - Werner's - extensive knowledge on the subject),
I'd maybe change my mind and say NO to P. siculus. Although all these Podarcis bastards can look like
ANYTHING... (In more polite wording: they are extremely variable. Werner taught me that.)
So, the final solution: a tissue sample - just 2 mm of the tip of tail, DNA analysis, and we know what
it is.
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Alexander Pieh » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:54 pm

Dear Specialists,
I always thought that the blue shoulder spot in a black field (compare pic 2; still a black mark in one of the juveniles) is a typical character of P. siculus.
Or I`m wrong?
Sincerely
Alex
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Lukas Rosén » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:46 pm

Thanks to everyone for the great answers! This is all really interesting indeed. The possibility that it is a natrually occuring hybrid is still an option, maybe between Podarcis siculus and P muralis?
Berislav Horvatic wrote:So, the final solution: a tissue sample - just 2 mm of the tip of tail, DNA analysis, and we know what
it is.


Any idea how much it would cost to get an analysis made?

Thanks
Lukas
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Ulrich Schulte » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Dear Alexander, dear Lukas,

it is true that blue shoulder spots are more common in siculus, however muralis also show blue fields at the head shoulder etc (attached some pictures).

sequencing a sample is about 40 euro, but I don't think it is necessary, because it must be a muralis (most probably a nigriventris x maculiventris hybrid, like Mario said).

Greetings, Ulli
P1010107.JPG
P1010167.JPG
mur.jpg
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:28 pm

Alexander Pieh wrote:Dear Specialists,
I always thought that the blue shoulder spot in a black field (compare pic 2; still a black mark in one of the juveniles) is a typical character of P. siculus.
Or I`m wrong?

Never heard of that as a reliable criterion to identify a P. siculus. Also, even the great Werner never
mentioned it (to me, at least.)
How about this shoulder mark of a beatiful adult P. siculus male (yes, for sure, Mario is my witness...
above the lake Ponikve, 22 June 2006) with a Swastika instead of just the "black field"...? Well, not
the Nazi one, but the original, Indian one, the other way round:

Be3443_RED.jpg

But on the other (right) side of the same animal, nothing like that - just a small black spot, not a black field:

Be_3444_RED.jpg

Yes, Werner was right - no easy solution and too many exceptions to "simple rules".
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Alexander Pieh » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:20 pm

Thank you Uli and Bero,
Yes Uli, I agree there are often blue spots "somewhere" in male P. muralis. spec..
-The pic Lukas has posted shows a female.
Beros P. siculus is according to my view within the normal range.
Werners animals don´t show blue spots.
Please forgive me, I´m not satisfied. (I`m still learning every day!)
@Lukas, is it possible to show us some pics of the belly/throat of the animal(s)?
The Best
Alex
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:02 pm

Alexander Pieh wrote:Beros P. siculus is according to my view within the normal range.

Is it? But where's then the masseteric shield, on both sides of the head?!
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Alexander Pieh » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:04 pm

Ok Bero,
I mend the blue spot and the coloration and didn´t look at the head.
- In between I have checked a few pics.
The pronounced shoulder spot seems to be more common in P. muralis (and the Genus) than I have thought.
Sincerely
Alex
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Re: Fruit parcel Podarcis - Identification??

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:52 pm

Yes, Alex, may I quote myself (and Werner):
Yes, Werner was right - no easy solution and too many exceptions to "simple rules".
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