Vipera hybrid?

[Tomaz Jagar]

Hello, these are new arrivals at a place I work at, supposed to be V. a. 'gregorwallneri', but I sincerely doubt that... The animals are siblings, so it couldn't be a coincidental pattern anomaly, also their 'horns' are very short. What do you guys think? Ammodytes x aspis or ammodytes x berus hybrids come to mind.

Sorry for the poor phone pics, it was the only thing I had with me. I can also provide scalation info, as I have a complete shed from one of the animals.







Regards, Tomaz

[Mario Schweiger]

These are for sure NO "gregorwallneris", nor another pure ammodytes.
Resemble my ammo x aspis hybrids very well.

female

male

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Many more knowledgeable people will probably laugh at me, but looks somehow like transcaucasiana to me...

[Jürgen Gebhart]

When you look at the top of the nose you see that it can not be a pure ammodytes

My guess is also ammodytes x aspis

[Borji Heras]

agree,hybrid with aspis

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Why?

[Borji Heras]

http://vipere-passion.over-blog.fr/m/ar ... 88404.html
because of this.and because i have seen more hybrids and for me looks like
just an opinion!
what do you think Jeroen

[Borji Heras]

abou Francisciredi ive seen many coloured like this but zig zag is differenj and the horn is not so pronnounced but looks quite similar

[Mario Schweiger]

I´ve seen many transcaucasiana from the Sarpanca area (NW Anatolia) along the Black Sea eastwards to the Georgian border. None of these had such pronounced stripes from the eye to the corner of the mouth. Although they have quite short horns, these are build up from at least 3 scale rows.

Vipera a. transcaucasiana, male; Sünnet lake (Sarpanca area) NW Turkey (road killed)

Vipera ammodytes transcaucasiana male, Borcka area NE Turkey

Vipera ammodytes transcaucasiana, male East Pontus, Turkey

Atavistic (europ.) ammodytes with reduced horns, in very most cases show the typical ammodytes zig-zag. I only know a small population SW of Olymp mountain (Greece), having a bit resembling "aspis"-pattern, but with much broader bars (more than in typical transcaucasiana).

Please check also my (unfortunately available only in German language) paper on hybrids and atavistic ammodytes http://vipersgarden.at/PDF/Schweiger_VipHybrids.pdf.

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Thanks, Mario.

what do you think Jeroen

I don't think anything - I am completely ignorant on this subject, just have general doubt about relying on morphology to identify hybrids of variable species. There are quite a few examples of fauna hybrids all showing morphology of just 1 of the parent species (thus making it unidentifiable, unless primary and secondary sexual features are investigated), but I'm sure Mario knows.