Rana graeca?

You have a picture of an amphibian or reptile and do not know, what it is! Ask here

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Mario Schweiger » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:42 pm

from a non amphibians expert: Rana temporaria male :o
Mario (Admin)

Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
User avatar
Mario Schweiger
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Obertrum, Salzburg, Austria
Hometown: Obertrum
country: Austria

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Mario Schweiger » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:49 pm

I was asking Andrej Stojanov and got the answer: definitively Rana temporia (so the winners are: Jeroen and Bobby :lol: )

Here the original answer (in German language):
Falls du die zwei Fotos, die ganz oben bei dieser Forumdiskussion stehen meinst, die ein kleines Tier zeigen - das ist definitiv Rana temporaria. Ich weiss nicht wo genau dieser Kollege in 1800 m (Rila-Gebirge) Rana graeca gesehen haben muss, doch da liegt ganz sicher eine Verwechslung vor. Dort gibt's keine graecas. Sogar die dalmatinas sind sehr rar auf dieser Hoehe.
- Bei den kleinen Tieren koennen verschiedene Koerperproportionen duraus anders als bei den Adulti aussehen. Trotzdem ist das Tympanum in wirklichkeit nicht so klein, wie du meinst (kann leider das Bild nicht weiter vergroessern).
- Noch was - sogar bei dieser Koerpergroesse zeigt die Kehle bei den graeca's eine voellig andere Zeichnung. Die Grundfarbe ist sehr dunkel, bis fast schwarz mit einer hellen Mittellinie. Was diese Besonderheit angeht, konnten wir bis heute keine Ausnahme feststellen.
Fazit: Rana temporaria
Ich schicke dir hiermit ein Foto, das ich im September 2014 mit meinem Handy gemacht habe. Es handelt sich um ein vergleichbar grosses Tier (Rana graeca).

100920144750.jpg
Rana graeca, juvenile (Photo: Andrej Stojanov)
Mario (Admin)

Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
User avatar
Mario Schweiger
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Obertrum, Salzburg, Austria
Hometown: Obertrum
country: Austria

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:51 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:from a non amphibians expert: Rana temporaria male :o

Yes! Unless anyone has evidence that Montenegro dalmatina have short legs, highly mottled bellies etc. ;)

It's maybe a pity that Andrej did not argue in more detail why it is not dalmatina, but the dalmatina-like eardrum and snout shape of my frog illustrate that (perhaps together with Podarcis siculus) temporaria are the kings of variation among European herps. All over Europe & even in proportions of body parts. This is especially true for montane populations. In the western Pyrenees, notably long-legged temporaria are also often mixed up with dalmatina.
Jeroen Speybroeck
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:18 am
Hometown: Merelbeke
country: Belgium

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Ilias Strachinis » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:22 pm

Well Andrej Stojanov says that this is not a graeca so it should be a temporaria, right? He also says that the eardrum isn't that small as it seems (am I translating right again?). He excluded dalmatina because of the altitude. I've seen both dalmatina and graeca at 1900 at the Greek borders with FYROM, and in good/big populations. I still think the snout is too long for a temporaria and I would expect a rougher skin for a temporaria. The throats of temporarias I see in Greece (and in photos from Bulgaria) are very similar to graecas (heavily spotted). Jeroen that photo of yours with the temporaria is first on the line in my website ;-) http://www.herpetofauna.gr/index.php?mo ... 32&sid=219
I would like to see some more photos of the animal from different POVs to feel sure enough. I don't insist though. 3 experts see temporaria at the moment, so I'm the weakest link :-P
Ilias Strachinis
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:02 am
Hometown: Thessaloniki
country: Greece

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Mario Schweiger » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:58 pm

Andrej said (wrote), at this altitude (1800 m asl) there are no graecas and dalmatina are very rare there.

I have only pictures from 1 individual from Varnous mountain, close to the FYROM border (Agios Germanos), at approx. 1000 m asl.
It had a spotted throat, but the pointed snout looks like the same like here in Austria.
dalm_varnous1.jpg
Rana dalmatina, Varnous mountain

dalm_varnous2.jpg
Rana dalmatina, Varnous mountain
Mario (Admin)

Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
User avatar
Mario Schweiger
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Obertrum, Salzburg, Austria
Hometown: Obertrum
country: Austria

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Daniel Kane » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:31 pm

So to add either more confusion or, hopefully, a more definitive answer, which species does this small frog represent? I have my own assumptions but would be interested to hear your thoughts, and reasoning. Found in wet grassland, around 1,000m at the northern end of the Pirin Mountains, Bulgaria.

DSCF5811wps.JPG


DSCF5801wps.JPG
Daniel Kane
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:35 pm
Location: London
Hometown: London
country: England

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:56 pm

Also tempo, I'd say.
Jeroen Speybroeck
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:18 am
Hometown: Merelbeke
country: Belgium

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Edvard Mizsei » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:15 am

That one from Central-Albania? Around 1200 m a.s.l.
Image
Edvard Mizsei
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:57 am
Location: Debrecen
Hometown: Szeged
country: Hungary

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Ilias Strachinis » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:33 am

Mario I meant heavily spotted like these ones :
http://en.balcanica.info/2-2444 (Stara Planina)
http://en.balcanica.info/2-2819 (Rila)
http://en.balcanica.info/2-9328 (Rila)

Yours is clearly a dalmatina, the throat looks very normal.
Daniel's is temporaria
Edvard's: graeca
Ilias Strachinis
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:02 am
Hometown: Thessaloniki
country: Greece

Re: Rana graeca?

Postby Mario Schweiger » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:37 am

Ilias,

what do you think on this one (youngster, approx. 3 cm).
rana1a.jpg
Rana sp.

rana1b.jpg
same individual, ventral view

Its from Greece (I know the very exact location ;) )

Mario
Mario (Admin)

Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
User avatar
Mario Schweiger
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: Obertrum, Salzburg, Austria
Hometown: Obertrum
country: Austria

PreviousNext

Return to Herp ID´s

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests