Two lizards from Oropa (Biella - Italy)

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Two lizards from Oropa (Biella - Italy)

Postby Ruggero M. » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:25 pm

Oropa is 1100 m high, in the province of Biella (Piemonte - Italy).
In a habitat of big stones, grass and a small stream with water ponds, I saw two lizards that were for me unusual and not so typical for Podarcis muralis.
The pictures are awful, and a friend of mine, who has seen them with cell phone/whatsapp, said to me they are common Podarcis muralis because of the dark stripes on the flanks and the beige dorsum: but I'm not convinced of this, because I've seen pictures of Z.vivipara on the web with the same colours of my specimens.
I think they could be Z.vivipara for the following reasons (I've seen rather well the two specimens, and spotted only for a fraction of second other 1-2 lizards in the same habitat):
- wet mountain habitat not so typical for P.muralis;
- colour and markings were not so typical for the P.muralis I usually see;
- I had the impression they had "keeled" dorsal scales;
- I had the impression head shape was different (more rounded and less flat) than in P.muralis;
- the tail (particularly of the first small specimen) was incredibly long and fat for a P.muralis: I've never observed a tail like that in a muralis.

Here are the (awful) pictures:
zot1.jpg
First specimen: young and small lizard

zot2.jpg
Second, bigger specimen

detail.jpg
Detail of the second specimen
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Re: Two lizards from Oropa (Biella - Italy)

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:00 pm

The second looks like muralis to me. 1100m is not that high for the species, I've seen muralis in Italy at 1850m.
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Re: Two lizards from Oropa (Biella - Italy)

Postby Ruggero M. » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:56 pm

Thanks Jeroen, but with my new damned smartphone, I'm really not able to take decent pictures... Both lizards had small markings/designs you cannot see from the pictures, fine markings on the dorsum that I've probably or seemingly never observed in muralis.
When I saw the first lizard (I was looking for vipers/adders) I noticed at once something not usual for me: I've seen thousands of muralis, and I didn't think I could see vivipara there. But that small lizard was really something "different", and I'm the only person who has actually seen them both "alive"!
Body shape, head shape (!), markings and the somehow "rough" skin attracted my attention, even if I'm not enthusiastic about lizards.
In the pictures you don't see the fine markings and the rough skin: you see only the "shape" of the lizards and their ground colours without details.

The height (1100-1200 meters) was not surprising for me: the habitat (big boulders in wet surroundings) and the lizards themselves were surprising for me... 8-)

Anyway, the Z.vivipara was already found in Oropa:
http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 3405,d.bGQ

What else can I say?
What do I think?

I think they both were, very probably (but I'm not 100% sure, maybe only 99% for the first one!) Z.vivipara... unless the contrary can be 100% stated by my awful pictures... :lol:

P.S. The first specimen was rather similar to this one, especially for what concerns the form of the tail (long and very fat, and dark):
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _11401.jpg
Is it possible for a young muralis to have such a kind of tail?

For Edo: why "could not" be also the second specimen a Z.vivipara female?
Take a look at this specimen: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/ident_images/L_v001.jpg
http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/common_lizard.htm
If I would have taken a picture of this english female specimen with my smartphone, which should be the differences of that hypothetical picture from my actual picture of the second specimen (faint middle dorsal line included)? :roll: Is the shape of the head of my second lizard really so typical for muralis? It's neither especially flat, nor "pointed", but, on the contrary, rather "thick" and "rounded"... :oops:
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Re: Two lizards from Oropa (Biella - Italy)

Postby Massimo Trentin » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:12 am

Well,I'm not an expert in lizards,but ,when I first saw the pics I thought " oh,it's a vivipara".
Body shape,fattish tail (more than in muralis),shorter snout shape and the little rounded marks you can barely see in the hips in 2nd -3rd pics make me think that.
Here some vivipara pics I took a couple of years ago in M.te Pasubio surroundings (Italy) at about 1400 m high.
Attachments
IMG_1343.JPG
IMG_1341.JPG
IMG_1340.JPG
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Re: Two lizards from Oropa (Biella - Italy)

Postby Ruggero M. » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:43 am

Thanks, Massimo! I'm not alone in this friendly "battle" of species determination... :P

I must add here the interesting and almost incredible thing, you wrote to me per mail, that you answered my question, thinking that the pictures were taken by someone else and the initial post (with the replies) written by someone else, because you know I'm mainly/only interested in snakes! Nice and almost incredible, but true! :lol:
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Re: Two lizards from Oropa (Biella - Italy)

Postby Ruggero M. » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:09 am

I've received an answer per mail by an important and well known italian herpetologist of the Piemonte region... (I will reveal his name, only if he will give me his permission).

His answer is as follows:

Per me è una Z. vivipara (soprattutto per la forma della testa nella seconda foto)

Translated in english: For me it's Z.vivipara (mainly for the head shape in the second picture)

So: two scores for my thesis... :lol:
(Edo: I hope we will remain friends anyway! You know very well the herpetologist of that answer... and I know him thanks you! ;) )

Ok: permission obtained. The herpetologist is Roberto Sindaco, and I sent to him the exact place with Google-Earth :ugeek:
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