horvathi or muralis

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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:29 pm

The last original tail ring is clearly larger than the one before it.
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:52 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:
Mario Schweiger wrote:In horvathi the scales are smaller, giving an oily appearance.

But the latest Bible (Jeroen & al) says "Dorsal scalation shiny but coarser than in Common
Wall Lizard Podarcis muralis." Well, I suppose "coarser" means larger scales, not smaller...

Indeed. The oily shiny (often green) rather relates to lack of keels than to scale size. Maybe 'coarse' is not the best choice of words...
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:42 am

BH_NN_2945_RED.jpg

What would you call that – “almost a horvathi” or "a bordering case of muralis”,...?
(Found in a textbook horvathi habitat, at cca. 1100 m a.s.l.)
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:27 pm

Muralis because of coloration and ignoring scalation. It's not always easy...
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:52 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Muralis because of coloration and ignoring scalation. It's not always easy...

Yeah, yeah, that's just what I wanted to show... It's not always easy... Since three fieldherpers
(including me) had the animal in their hands, it's a muralis, as you said, albeit a "bordering case"...
But had the resolution of the picture been worse... the horvathi-lovers might have a case...
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:04 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:
Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Muralis because of coloration and ignoring scalation. It's not always easy...

Yeah, yeah, that's just what I wanted to show... It's not always easy... Since three fieldherpers
(including me) had the animal in their hands, it's a muralis, as you said, albeit a "bordering case"...
But had the resolution of the picture been worse... the horvathi-lovers might have a case...

Fairly hypothetical, but not with these colours + imho you'd have to have a more than just a bit blurry pic to obscure those supranasals. In short, imho no, not really.
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:08 pm

But I mainly wonder if Mario is still not convinced. ;)
GJ also seems to disagree, although he didn't say exactly why. I'm open for additional debate (although we went through most of the characteristics I guess).
And you are in dubio, Bero?
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:57 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:But I mainly wonder if Mario is still not convinced. ;)
GJ also seems to disagree, although he didn't say exactly why. I'm open for additional debate
(although we went through most of the characteristics I guess).
And you are in dubio, Bero?

Regarding Kristian's lizard? Not at all, I prefer to keep my peace of mind. It's most probably a horvathi, as so many of
you argued, not without reason. With my picture I just wanted to show plainly how tricky it could become, although
I knew the answer in advance, since I had had the animal in my hands, together with Pierre-Yves Vaucher and Frank Deschandole.
As for Mario, he should say for himself. It's not bad at all to acknowledge one's error, or defend one's opinion.
GJ also seems to disagree, although he didn't say exactly why.

But where? In a private message, or what? Haven't noticed a comment from him in this "thread".
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby GertJan Verspui » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:10 pm

_GJV5939.JPG
What about this one?


I thought muralis.
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Re: horvathi or muralis

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:24 pm

GertJan Verspui wrote:I thought muralis.

Well, isn't it?

But this doesn't answer my question (to Jeroen), regarding his "GJ also seems to disagree, although
he didn't say exactly why."
But where? In a private message, or what? Haven't noticed a comment from him in this "thread".
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