trusting people

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

I would like to learn your thoughts about something...

Each year, like probably most people on here with a personal herping website, I get a bunch of e-mails from people asking me where they can go see certain species. Often these are rare/sensitive/secretive species(e.g. Pyrenean Iberolacerta, Sardinian salamanders, Alytes muletensis).

As a general rule, I do not give site details to people I do not know myself. Anyone I do give sites to (incl. their travel company), I specifically ask to never give that information to a 2nd person but to refer them to me. Also, most 'valuable' sites I know are places I also got from someone else. Recently, I tend to break that rule less often than in the past, since I have been disappointed by the facts a few times.

In my opinion, it's not mainly about trusting who's asking (because you can check that person rather well usually). I am more concerned about whether the trusted person is able to keep his/her mouth shut, because in the end you need to rely on the collective trust of person A in B, B in C, C in D, ... which creates the chance that not only too many people visit the same sensitive sites, but the fact that in the end some poacher with a naive friend will be listening and will collect (many!) animals. This may sound paranoid, but there are indications that last year, some time after Bobby and I were there, the famous artificial cave of Speleomantes sarrabusensis was poached.

I hate this myself, because I myself have received a lot of help from other people and enjoyed their hints, but I'm really afraid now. I am actually in some cases also already guilty of breaking other people's trust (even if I give sites to people I know), because many sites that I know I have not discovered myself.

I know we had some sort of related discussion a while ago, in relation to a certain Czech person (still a registered member of this forum, btw), but I would like to hear your thoughts about it. I guess it could depend on the nature of the site and the species, but how protective are you about 'your' sites, be it local or abroad? How do you balance between sharing the joy and staying safe? What criteria do you apply?

All thoughts much appreciated.

[Borji Heras]

I am sorry but with certain species , i never give the exact locations , for example a lot of people ask me about places for Vipera Latastei in Spain
when you speak with a "friend" about a good place for herping , this friend has another friend and the other friend another one....and this can be quite dangerous with threatened species or interesting species for the pet trade.
a good example is Salamandra S. Alfredschmidti in North spain ... they live in very few valleys and every year , people around the world goes there not only for taking pictures.
Sometimes i ask for a place for certain species , but i dont expect an answer and if i dont receive it i can undersand it

[Jürgen Gebhart]

This is one of these Days I wish my english is much better and not all what I`m writing down sounds like nonsense.

When I get a location from anybody, I don`t tell it anybody else.
If anybody is asking me about that location and I know or trust him, I tell him ask … he gave me that location, if I don`t trust him he get`s nothing.

If I get ask about location I give it to everybody that I trust, with the words “But please don`t tell it anybody”.

What I like to do is go out with people and show them some places, but also with the words, “Please don`t tell anybody where we found that”.

Oh and I wish that more people trust me and give some location of Asps!!!!!!!

In this case nothing is wrong to be paranoid!

[Jürgen Gebhart]

when you speak with a "friend" about a good place for herping , this friend has another friend and the other friend another one....and this can be quite dangerous with threatened species or interesting species for the pet trade.

You are right, there is allways a big chance to have a jerk in this friend-chain, but it is like the most things in life a give and get situation.

[Pierre-Yves Vaucher]

google translation sorry:
JEROEN HELLO, I give my sources at reliable friends but mostly it was me who asked the sources LOL! by the way I respect the choice (for example ursinii's spots ;o)) and sort what I say and I usually do not say anything because I know few herpetologists wich who I go to the fields. And if I have to give a source here that will only visually someone I know and whose reputation is no doubt.
I think this is the asking person to prove (by labour in fields or website or herping communication)

[Michal Szkudlarek]

Poaching is a parasite on fieldherping. I feel bad with a knowledge that some people can take me as poacher in a terrain. Capturing such rare and endemic species like Speleomantes sarrabusensis is enormous loss for biodiversity. I think that it is obvious, that if anyone knows person that is suspected of poaching it is our obligation to inform proper bodies about him. Despite apperances it is quite easy to localize a person via IP and things like this- method that is used with localizing pedophiles. I think also that someone that is not registered on this forum (probably the biggest forum in Europe about fieldherping) is not interested enough to receive information about valuable spots. There are exceptions of course- people that don't know english and are participating on other- national- forum. From another point of view poaching can cause that new species/subspecies enters terraristic hobby that is rather good thing, but if someone with really big experience want to capture several specimens to breed them- it can be done legally by getting government approval.
Greetings

[Paul Lambourne]

Jeroen, et al,

This is a very emotive and difficult thread, I think Jeroen is completely right in saying specific site info should be carefully disseminated, however we are all interested, many of us almost obsessional, about seeing European species in the wild, we have all been helped at one time or another by people, and in the main I think (hope) the majority of field herpers are conservation minded.... I deal with enough of societies low life at work and cling to the comfort of this forum as a sound comunity

I also agree with Jurgen,in that I feel information regarding specific sites can be given to friends that have a proven history of serious field herping/study/research with the strict proviso that the site info is not to be shared. If the person goes on to share the information it is to their detriment not the person giving the initial info. This system seems to work well in the orchid community.. I am a keen orchidophile (dont judge me) and have seen all the UK orchids in bloom, info shared with me has never been passed on, as I feel it would damage my personel integrity to do, and to betray a friend is a very sad thing. I think we can assess most of our friends, contacts reasonably well, there will always be the shites, but that is life and we should only moderate our actions so far, to avoid becoming over insular.

Realistically by giving out site info you are only saving an individual time, I would suggest very few species could not be found by studying papers/ internet activity etc..

For example, last year I desired to see vipera xanthina, I asked a select few regarding site info, and quite rightly,as I was not specifically known to them, they politely declined. Vipera xanthina is a rare species for Europe and due to collecting for the pet trade suffering greatly. The sites should clearly remain descretely known to avoid this.

For the record, I have never, other than as a child with frog spawn, or an adult to translocate, had the desire to take any herp from the wild, the thought appals me, on many many levels.

Without specific site info, but a little knowledge of habitat etc and by reviewing publications both hard copy and online, we found Xanthina after three days of searching..

Had I had specific info I may have found the species in a matter of hours..its just a matter of time and reasarch in many, but not all cases.

I think we have to share info, otherwise we become insular and info/ data could be missed, and it is sad for our chosen hobby/interest if we cannot trust one another.. I do think however we need to police ourselves, "out" people that are not sincere and fully accredit and brief anyone that we share info with.

I myself have a had bad expiriences with sharing info re study sites, having sites overun with people that have been told of the sites by student helpers, no good, but we live and learn.

Jeroen,

You cannot be held responsible for other peoples actions, if you shared the info in good faith your Karma is clean, they are the tragic individuals, dont let it effect your love for the hobby, and the joy of field herping with friends.I would think you have a greater stress than most regarding this issue, as you are more well known than most, and subsequently will get asked for info more often.

From another point of view poaching can cause that new species/subspecies enters terraristic hobby that is rather good thing,

I could not disagree more, there is no need to take wild specimens for the petrade.. if people want to keep reptile/amphibians there is enough captive bred stock from animals held for study.. no need to increase the amount of animals taken from the wild.

Jurgen, I would be happy to share with you my asp sites, I know with your advanced age and alcohol limit you will forget them in a matter of hours anyway

Cheers all

Paul

[Jan Grathwohl]

Just want to use the opportunity to acknowledge the help i got from Jeroen when going to Peloponnes last year - and rest assure that the localities you provided me has not been shared with others

Sharing of localities is indeed a matter of trust - and hopefully we can trust each other by what we learn about one another at this magnificent site.

I have gotten lots of good localities both localy and abroad, and appreciate them a lot - and hopefully through responsible use of these, will be able to get help from others in the future as well.

I'm a terrarium keeper as well, and has been for 20+ years and will probably always be - but that is another hobby, which don't mix with my fieldherping activities


Vipera ammodytes from Kalogria, Peloponnese

[Rok Grzelj]

...thats why I dont like to ask other people for exact locations.With some research , good will and luck you can probably find nearly all European species by yourself....and maybe discover a new site one day.
In some way is too easy to get gps data...go to a site and find what you have been looking for...perhaps after many unsuccessful attempts you ask for an advice..
I still miss many species from the European species...but im not in hurry
Last year my wife and me discovered a new site with E.orbicularis in my area...so we decided to write a field note.With the review came the request of publishing the exact gps data about the finding!
An irresponsible request? I belive it is.
So...also with the help of scientific papers one can easily get the needed info.

[Sandra Panienka]

I'm kind of protective over any habitat. I usually go herping with people working in conservation, so trust is not the biggest issue. Biggest poachers are actually kids, but they don't know better and in that case it is not about telling them were the ponds are, they usually already have their playground close to ponds.

I see more of a problem in posting trip reports with maps and good habitat shots. All you need then is Google Earth. I usually try to avoid posting habitat shots that might give people a good idea where I found a certain species.