snake species and their temper

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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Mario Schweiger » Fri May 22, 2015 7:47 am

my opinion: it strongly depends on individual/personal character - not on the species ;)
Some examples:
1980ies: In the mountains of the hinterland of Hercegnovi (Montenegro) I was bitten by a large (150 - 160 cm) female Natrix natrix when grabbing here around late morning. She bite like a machine gun and my blood was running, not dropping, from my hand and lower arm. At all other occasions Natrix natrix only did "like biting", with closed mouth attacks.
2011: The black Natrix tessellata from Bojana area, Montenegro (see my report) also tried to bite during daytime, when trying to make a "snake-Ikebana" for photos.
1980ies: A huge Elaphe quatuorlineata female in Calabria attacked me out of the bush from nearly 1 m distance (otherwise I wouldnt have spotted her :lol: ).
gemonensis/viridiflavus: some bite, but not every specimen. I think it strongly depends, how it is handled. If you hold it gently and let it crawl slowly through your fingers, there is a good chance, not to get bitten. Like last weekend on Krk. none tried to bite me - but bite my companions.
Same for Malpolon.

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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Bert Vandebosch » Fri May 22, 2015 8:48 am

My top 3 of the most feisty in nature of european snake species:
1. Rhinechis scalaris
2. Hierophis viridiflavus
3. Hemorrhois hippocrepis
But like most or all of us based on limited experience, so most likely not significant.

Everything depends ofcourse on multiple possible circumstances:
Way of handling (every snake is higly aggravated when grabbed firmly in the heart/lung region)
Weather conditions (a cold hibernating snake is not going to bite so quickly)
Personal state of the snake: Snakes in shedding display more defensive behaviour in my experience.
etc...

For the Natrix biting at night. It never happened to me but could it be a feeding response? They often hunt at night but their vision at night might not be so good. Maybe they respond more to touch than vision or smell while hunting at night?

The interesting/puzzling thing to me is what is the evolutionally advantage of not biting?,
why if a potential predator grabs you do you not give it a good chew in the hope it drops you?


Beats me, just as it does you. Anybody, somebody...?

Why does it have to be explained in terms of evolutionary advantage? Not every aspect of behaviour in species can or should be explained in that way. Is biting potential predators really relevant in the succes rate of survival for those species? In my opinion you always have to look at the mechanisms of evolution in a broader context.
Biting at predators or not might be better explained as a secondary effect of other more significant characteristics.
f.i. Active and fast hunters probably are more likely to be nervous in nature.
Why do snake species have different colours? Can you explain this always in terms of evolutionary advantage? I don't think so. If it is not relevant for evolution, it can be just developed by chance + when less relevant it is more likely that you see more diversity in that characteristic within a species.
So to conclude: Mario is probably right again:
my opinion: it strongly depends on individual/personal character - not on the species ;)
;)
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 22, 2015 8:54 am

Mario Schweiger wrote:it strongly depends on individual/personal character - not on the species ;)

Hmmm... I'd say both matter. No one will argue that Natrix natrix is less bity than Hierophis. On average, that is.
The way you handle them also place a role, yes. Add the conditions of the find/catch (weather...) and maybe we've got it nailed.

I remember one biting Natrix natrix and one very angry Elaphe quatuorlineata, but both were understandable.

The Natrix natrix sicula was being terribly annoyed by the bitten person.
Image

The 4liner was dug out of a concrete structure filled with sand, after which it wasn't too pleased.
Image

In general, the ursinii (French ursinii, graeca, moldavica from Danube and Iasi, true macrops and the unnamed 'macrops' ssp.) I have seen were pretty feisty buggers.

I agree with Bert that biting is not per se the best option for any animal to do. Spending venom comes at a fitness cost. Biting itself costs energy. Fleeing or playing dead may be preferable. Yet, I don't agree that colours have no evolutionary ground at all, because they sure develop in relation to the environment and evolutionary gradually evolving niche of a species/clade, but that's another discussion (again :lol: ).

I have a non-snake question - anyone ever been bitten by Pseudopus? I'd imagine they should be able to draw pints of blood. Instead, evolution lead them to prefer to crap :lol:
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 22, 2015 8:58 am

I forgot - the ranking I would give surely has the whip snakes on top. Adult Malpolon bite more readily than any 'old' Elaphe (except maybe sauromates), but there are many exceptions.

Telescopus is maybe imho the best example of Mario's point - you can find animals under similar circumstances (hunting at night), with some going Jaws on you and others being just Bambi.
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Bert Vandebosch » Fri May 22, 2015 9:10 am

Yet, I don't agree that colours have no evolutionary ground at all

I never said that. In many cases it probably has a significant evolutionary ground. Just not always: look in how many colours Corallus hortulanus comes and that is within one species.

About the Pseudopus: Never, I even completly trust them with the children. If you hold them even at mid-body they don't bend enough to be able to bite you anyway.
I think about every male showed his penisses to me though. :shock:

Anybody ever been bitten by a european frog species?
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 22, 2015 9:26 am

Bert Vandebosch wrote:
Yet, I don't agree that colours have no evolutionary ground at all

I never said that. In many cases it probably has a significant evolutionary ground. Just not always: look in how many colours Corallus hortulanus comes and that is within one species.

Still, even colour morphs have an evolutionary origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphism_%28biology%29
(not sure, but in hortulanus it may be more clinal than discrete, though)
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 22, 2015 9:30 am

Bert Vandebosch wrote:
Anybody ever been bitten by a european frog species?

Only by a grafi when trying to get a look at its vomerine teeth ;) :oops:
Newt bites, though, yes. Salamandra (or other salamanders, for that matter), never!
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 22, 2015 9:35 am

Bert Vandebosch wrote:Why do snake species have different colours? Can you explain this always in terms of evolutionary advantage?

So, to be clear I'm not misquoting anyone - my answer is "way more often than we may imagine". Yet, colour and pattern are maybe separate things here.
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 22, 2015 9:38 am

Bert Vandebosch wrote:About the Pseudopus: Never, I even completly trust them with the children. If you hold them even at mid-body they don't bend enough to be able to bite you anyway

Simple bit valid reasoning, I like it. Anguis may bite, but is a bit less rigid, true. Still, it puzzles me that such power has no defensive aspect.
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Bert Vandebosch » Fri May 22, 2015 10:26 am

Well I'm no biologist.
You might be right but maybe it is just a plea of me to not oversimplify evolutionary mechanisms.
What the evolutionary advantage of a certain characteristic is, is IMHO not always a relevant question to ask.
Trying to make my point with the colours makes me quilty to oversimplifying as well and was maybe just not the best example. I confuse myself :D
Brings us to similar discussions as about mimicry. A term as you know I find to be used too often, too soon. So maybe a better example.

Still, it puzzles me that such power has no defensive aspect

It is strange but they do use that power to roll like crazy and to use their tail like a whip, all defensive aspects.
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