snake species and their temper

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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Robin Duborget » Sun May 24, 2015 7:38 am

Ah ....

What I'm trying to say is that even without selection (and against selection !) you can have the fixation of a negative characteristic in a population, only by mutation and genetic drift.
So yours "whim of nature" are not always "punished".

Otherwise I was bitten two time by a Hierophis viridiflavus, one time even withouth grab it !

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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Niklas Ban » Sun May 24, 2015 10:33 am

Robin Duborget wrote:Otherwise I was bitten two time by a Hierophis viridiflavus, one time even withouth grab it !

A H. viridiflavus in Ticino was the only snake I found yet, which didn't actually tried to flee, but attacked me. I found it on a little trail in the mountains and
it had a enough space to flee, because I was standing two metres away from it, but it still prefered to attack me. The most courageous (insane) snake I've ever seen.
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun May 24, 2015 4:13 pm

Robin Duborget wrote:Ah ....

Sorry, this was not meant as any kind of a provocation at all.

What I'm trying to say is that even without selection (and against selection !) you can have
the fixation of a negative characteristic in a population, only by mutation and genetic drift.
So yours "whim of nature" are not always "punished".

What about "in the long run" - long enough, really long? Wouldn't a population like that finally perish?
Wouldn't a "negative" mutation plus genetic drift (in an isolated population, at least) prove deleterious
in ultimo analisi?
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Robin Duborget » Sun May 24, 2015 6:56 pm

Don't worry I understanded that it wasn't a provocation. I was just disappointed that you did not follow my reasoning.

It's complicated but it depend on the population size. If you have a very small population, polymorphism don't last long (eliminated by genetic drift or natural selection, think about the Salamandra lanzai for example), but in a big one you can maintain negative traits. It's possible only if the negative characteristic is not "too negative".
For our antartic fish they have this negative characteristic for ages ! This loss affected the individual fitness but not not enough for leading the population to extinction.

We have numerous example of scenarii like this in harsh environments, without a lot of inter-intra-species competition. In environments like rainforest you can't maintain negative characteristic (even if it i'snt too negative) because of the high competition between species, individual and popualtion...
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun May 24, 2015 7:22 pm

I was just disappointed that you did not follow my reasoning.

Me too. But that might sooner be due to my ignorance, than to your way of exposition. After all, I'm just
a theoretical physicist, not a biologist, and I'm fully aware of that. However, as a theoretical physicist, I
prefer clear, logically founded explanations... It seems to me that professional biologists have a tendency
to rush to an explanation - way too much - in one step, maybe even two, but not much more than that...
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Robin Duborget » Sun May 24, 2015 8:42 pm

Good luck for trying to explain something in theorical physics to me, I'm pretty sure that I will not understand a word, even if you take more than two step ;)

I could discuss hours and hours about evolution and speciation but ... in french ! Maybe if you show what you don't understand, I can clearly explain this fact ...
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Guillaume Gomard » Mon May 25, 2015 12:36 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Another sideline could be to talk about interesting side effects of being bitten by so-called non venomous snakes...?


Coming back to your question, Jeroen: In the last couple of years, I've been bitten many times by H.viridiflavus, only 1 single time I could feel my finger locally "burning" after the snake chewed me for few seconds. The only other experience I have with respect to side effects from colubrids' bite was in Morocco, and it came from a Rhagerhis moilensis (without chewing action). Again, I could feel my fingers burning for 1-2 hours without further complications. This was anticipated because there are several records of mild to more serious envenomation from R. moilensis.

As was pointed out before, I also think that when one is reporting about symptoms the psychosomatic effects frequently take place.

I would be interested to know if somebody on this forum could experience something bad after a bite from Malpolon sp.?
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon May 25, 2015 8:24 pm

Robin Duborget wrote:Good luck for trying to explain something in theorical physics to me, I'm pretty sure that
I will not understand a word, even if you take more than two step ;)

No, you would, I'd do my best in a case like that, believe me. But by "rushing to an answer in one step, maybe two,
but not many more than that" I meant the tendency of biologists to try to explain things too simply - not always, not
all of them, of course - but somehow I got the impression that they seem to avoid "too long" chains of reasoning, just
following the idea that "if it isn't short and simple enough, it's most probably wrong..." I dont agree - things in nature
can be immensely complicated, why should they be "simple enough", just to suit our "taste" (or intelectual laziness?)...
Nobody, no g/God or whoever, has ever promised us a SIMPLE universe... simple enough for us to understand it, let
alone in just a step or two of our reasoning...
Of course the biologists are not the only "culprits", that was just an example, so, please, take no offence, any of you.

I could discuss hours and hours about evolution and speciation but ... in french ! Maybe if you show
what you don't understand, I can clearly explain this fact ...

No need, I've read (and hopefully understood) enough of biology. Regarding your proposal, yes (but not in French, sorry),
somewhere in vivo, over a beer, or whatever you drink. Peace on you! Actually, even here, without a drink, just jump in.
We've both heard and seen too little of you so far, which is (obviously) a pity...

Back to snakes, either "nonvenomous" or "semi-venomous" (rear-fanged). In Croatia we have two "semi-venomous" species,
Malpolon insignitus and Telescopus fallax. While any "normal" malpolon in his right mind would try to "tear you to pieces",
a "normal" telescopus won't even try to bite you once... a most placid and cooperative snake. OK, a malpolon is quite big,
while a telescopus is (comparatively) small, but IF they both really wanted to use their venomous rear fangs for defence,
they should both do the same - bite and CHEW, for quite a while... Yet they obviously don't - both of them, I would say.
My (certainly oversimplified!) attempt of an "explanation in one step": It seems they just don't count on using their venom
for defence, either of them. Malpolon uses it's sheer size, vigour & strength, but what about telescopus...? A different
species - a different strategy? But then, what does a telescopus count on regarding defence, being so much smaller than
its so "aggressive" cousin? No idea. (BTW, are they really "cousins" at all - having rear fangs doesn't necessarily have to
mean close cousinship - or does it? I don't now, maybe someone around here does... )
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Ronald Zimmerman » Mon May 25, 2015 11:04 pm

I see long discussions, which are very interesting to read. :) My humble contribution is that the Balkan Whip Snake (Hierophis gemonensis) is the snake with the 'baddest temper' I have seen in the field (Croatia). When holding the snake he kept on biting and chewing until you stopped holding him. He was already very warm and active.
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Re: snake species and their temper

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon May 25, 2015 11:49 pm

Ronald Zimmerman wrote:My humble contribution is that the Balkan Whip Snake (Hierophis gemonensis) is the snake with the 'baddest temper' I have seen in the field (Croatia). When holding the snake he kept on biting and chewing until you stopped holding him. He was already very warm and active.

Well, allow me to quote myself, from many "pages" above:
Regarding Hierophis gemonensis, it really loves to bite, quite fiercelly, but not forever... Thomas Ott (from
Switzerland) taught me the trick: You catch a gemo with your gloves on, and let it bite them at will, till it
gets enough of it. Then you can safely remove the gloves and handle it barehanded, provided you do it gently
enough, without any sudden and "threatening" movements. It does work, and I've taught that to everybody else.
Thanks, Thomas, that makes life much easier, especially at taking photos (without gloves - what a relief!)

Granted, there might well occur some "unfortunate" (for us) exceptions that really never stop biting... Personally
I have never encountered any of them, breaking the Thomas's "golden rule"...
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