snake species and their temper

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

I'm afraid snakes are not smart enough to tell the difference, but it's an interesting point - after a while they might indeed start to wonder what will happen next, as they haven't been eaten yet.

Anywayzzz... Like Bert's no biologist, I'm no biology teacher, so let's get back to finding someone who has actually been bitten by a Pseudopus

Another sideline could be to talk about interesting side effects of being bitten by so-called non venomous snakes...?

[Berislav Horvatic]

Yeah I was talking about biting in general of non-venomous species, some of the other things non-biters do
in defence must use far more energy than biting, try hyperventilating for a few minutes whilst occasionally
throwing yourself forwards.

Yeah, that's what e.g. vipers do. Poor them, indeed. I've noticed their heavy breathing while expecting...
whatever evil they might expect to come from a Tyrannosaurus like me (or you, or any of us)... Maybe,
just maybe, one could hope that they don't percieve US as their "regular" predators... and maybe for that
reason they (usually, "normally") don't bite US as fiercely as they could... Hope so. For their sake.

However not biting (along with lots of other life strategies) seems to work for grass snakes because they are
one of the most widespread European species.

Evolutionarily, under the (present) circumstances... if I may insist once more... Evolution just "picks horses
for the races", it does not care... In different circumstances, it could be (have been) otherwise.

[Berislav Horvatic]

I'm afraid snakes are not smart enough to tell the difference, but it's an interesting point - after a while
they might indeed start to wonder what will happen next, as they haven't been eaten yet.

That's precisely my point, for what it's worth. Probably not much, but that's just my... never mind.

Anywayzzz... Like Bert's no biologist, I'm no biology teacher, so let's get back to finding someone who has actually
been bitten by a Pseudopus

Most probably nobody has, although it's quite a terrifying thought... With their jaws they crack the snail shells
- I've never heard the very SOUND of that, but those who have tell me it's... well, interesting, at least ... One
starts imagining what it would be like, if a P. apodus decided to chew (off) your finger instead of just playing
a "garden hose", or any similar peace of rubber - which it invariably does.
BTW, for a decade or so I've been trying to take a photo of a P. apodus that doesn't look like dead, or like a
rubber garden hose... without success (to my taste). There have been some "promising" pictures, but nothing
like a decent PORTRAIT of a LIVING BEING. (Pardon my capitals, but I just had to...) I wonder if anyone else
has ever had success with that enormously demanding attempt? Any convincing photo of an alive & lively (!)
P. apodus?

Another sideline could be to talk about interesting side effects of being bitten by so-called non venomous snakes...?

Tell you tomorrow. Regarding "side effects", a bite by the biggest H. gemonensis that has ever bitten me gave me
some real trouble - the wound healed, but then festered "inside" - "encapsulated" - or whatever it's called - and
finally forced me to pay a visit to a local physician (in Šilo on Krk.) All went well. And that was the only medical
intervention I've had to undergo regarding snakebites.

[Bert Vandebosch]

No, I don't. I'm a talibanic Darwinian mujahid, and I believe in the teachings of our Great Leader that, STATISTICALLY
(= evolutionarily), nothing survives as just a "whim of Nature" - in the long run, of course. A particular individual animal
can make a most "stupid" move in it's individual life, but, statistically (evolutionarilly), it gets "punished". Darwin äkbär!

I wonder what Darwin himself would think about being called someone's God
For me anything can be proven with statistics, it just depends on which questions you ask and if they are relevant to start with .
I've learned not to argue with people who believe in Gods (although it can be fun) since you can never win the argument

But

Evolutionarily, under the (present) circumstances... if I may insist once more... Evolution just "picks horses
for the races", it does not care... In different circumstances, it could be (have been) otherwise.

so we actually agree. Evolution is never finished, so nothing is ever perfect. So there can be "flaws" that under certain circumstances are not relevant enough to have disappeared yet and evolution will not care for that either. So some "whims of nature" can persist for a significant while...
I rest my case. I had too much time on my hands today being stuck indoors with a sick child.

Another sideline could be to talk about interesting side effects of being bitten by so-called non venomous snakes...?

Always difficult to judge. The craziest story I've heard: a long time ago at a meeting of snake keepers, I met a man who claimed to been bitten by a Natrix (what are the chances?). And he claimed that caused a severe case of diarrhea. The whole room of people started laughing with him, nobody wanted to believe that. Whe tried to convince him that may have had other causes but he stayed completely convinced and became very angry because he was being laughed at. The stress of being bitten might have caused him to shit himself, I don't know. Could this also be regarded as a valid side effect?

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

I wonder what Darwin himself would think about being called someone's God

Well, if I'm not mistaken he was not really an atheist, but just a regular guy of his time. Or did he indeed lose his faith when loosing his second child, can't remember...

For me anything can be proven with statistics, it just depends on which questions you ask and if they are relevant to start with .

Everyone's entitled to his/her opinion but that's a bit of a nihilist viewpoint, because you're basically saying "to hell with science".

I had too much time on my hands today being stuck indoors with a sick child.

Yes, yes, I know, some of us waste their time here all the time

Could this also be regarded as a valid side effect?

Well, I wasn't really think of that. In a way, I guess it could, but then again, it might be the same as with a mouse bite
So, I was more wondering about "venom" effects than psychological stuff.

[Carl Corbidge]

Dahl's whip snake bites always seem to itch a lot.

The craziest story I've heard: a long time ago at a meeting of snake keepers, I met a man who claimed to been bitten by a Natrix (what are the chances?). And he claimed that caused a severe case of diarrhea.

Obviously he would have other symptoms before he got the shits from a bite, but if he got snake shit on his hands and then injested some maybe it could happen. This brings me onto another possibility, would it be possible to get something like Leptospirosis from a bite, imagine a snake that had recently eaten a rat that pissed when being eaten, then we appear make a nice catch get bitten and ?

[Mario Schweiger]

The craziest story I've heard: a long time ago at a meeting of snake keepers, I met a man who claimed to been bitten by a Natrix (what are the chances?). And he claimed that caused a severe case of diarrhea.

There are some cases of little bit of envenomation from Natrix natrix bites. Here is an example for captive Natrix n. helvetica, biting while feeding (unfortunately in german language).
http://www.vipersgarden.at/PDF_files/PDF-889.pdf

[Berislav Horvatic]

No, I don't. I'm a talibanic Darwinian mujahid, and I believe in the teachings of our Great Leader that, STATISTICALLY
(= evolutionarily), nothing survives as just a "whim of Nature" - in the long run, of course. A particular individual animal
can make a most "stupid" move in it's individual life, but, statistically (evolutionarilly), it gets "punished". Darwin äkbär!

I wonder what Darwin himself would think about being called someone's God ! I've learned not to argue with people
who believe in Gods (although it can be fun) since you can never win the argument

That was meant as a joke - or a well-minded, healthy provocation... Personally, I'm an atheist, to make it quite clear. Not an
"agnostic" but an atheist, a genuine one. Sorry, it seems that my "deliberation" of NOT using "emoticons" (smileys) might, alas,
also "backfire"... produce misunderstandings... hopefully not too serious ones. (But, allow me, depending on your wits as well,
not only mine...)

For me anything can be proven with statistics, it just depends on which questions you ask and if they are relevant to start with .

Jeroen has already answered that, short-and-straight, I have nothing to add. Except, perhaps, Jeroen äkbär! (Well, sometimes...)
(And, BTW, I stongly hope I won't start receiving death threats from some real talibans and/or mujahideen, for "misusing" the very
terms... In these troubled days, one can never know...)

Evolutionarily, under the (present) circumstances... if I may insist once more... Evolution just "picks horses
for the races", it does not care... In different circumstances, it could be (have been) otherwise.

so we actually agree. Evolution is never finished, so nothing is ever perfect. So there can be "flaws" that under certain circumstances
are not relevant enough to have disappeared yet and evolution will not care for that either. So some "whims of nature" can persist for
a significant while...

... are not relevant ENOUGH to have disappeared YET and evolution will not care for that either. (But it will, in due time...) So some
"whims of nature" can persist for a significant while... Which means only that the process is underway (of course it is!) and we are all
amidst of it, not quite understanding what's going on... but doing our best - in short, we're woking on it... what else?
Once again, as always, peace (not piss!) on you, my friend.

[Robin Duborget]

Evolution ! Great ! More interesting than snakes

You seem to forgot that evolution is not just natural selection (including sexual selection, mutualism and co) but also, mutation, migration and also genetic drift. So "adaptation" is not the only explanation of a behaviour or a characteristic. You have a famous exemple with antartic fish (Notothenioidei). They live without hemoglobin, they loose it because of a mutation that have been fixed by genetic drift. Or even if it isn't lethal in the O2 rich cold water of Antartic, it's unfavourable for them. So only by chance, you can fix some characteristic even if they are not favourable characteristics, not "adaptations" (I use this term with caution ...).
These driving forces constantly work on the populations. It explain the fact that perfection doesn't exist at all ...

Robin (a biology teacher who is very bad in english !).

[Berislav Horvatic]

Evolution ! Great ! More interesting than snakes

Of course not. But it's raining heavilly around here, it's much colder than it should be at this time of the year, so, one has to do at least something... reasonable or not...
This is, of course, of course, no excuse for producing any high-browed shit in a forum like this, with that I fully agree. And repent. And apologise.

You seem to forgot that evolution is not just natural selection (including sexual selection, mutualism and co) but also, mutation,
migration and also genetic drift. So "adaptation" is not the only explanation of a behaviour or a characteristic.
You have a famous exemple with antartic fish (Notothenioidei). They live without hemoglobin, they loose it because of a mutation that have been fixed by genetic drift. Or even if it isn't lethal in the O2 rich cold water of Antartic, it's unfavourable for them. So only by chance, you can fix some characteristic even if they are not favourable characteristics, not "adaptations" (I use this term with caution ...).
These driving forces constantly work on the populations. It explain the fact that perfection doesn't exist at all ...

I'd very much like to understand what you meant by this, but (at the moment, at least), I just fail to follow... In any case, I FORGOT
nothing at all, regarding the above-mentioned evolutionary stuff, inasmuch as it's been known to me. Sorry, I just fail to get the point...
It isn't necessarily your fault, but I just don't...

Robin (a biology teacher who is very bad in english !)

I can follow your English, but not your line of reasoning. Maybe mea culpa, maybe not, who cares... Fortunately, I'm not a pupil
of yours, so I can just afford to remain relaxed... Which doesn't mean that you are a bad teacher, only that... never mind.