Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ruggero M. » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:52 am

About bears which kill and eat human beings, I will recommend the following film by Werner Herzog:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man

A beautiful film which documents how passion towards animals may become lethal.

Timothy Treadwell and his wife were both killed and eaten by a grizzly bear. The docu-film is worth a vision.
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:48 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:About bears which kill and eat human beings, I will recommend the following film by Werner Herzog:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man
A beautiful film which documents how passion towards animals may become lethal.
Timothy Treadwell and his wife were both killed and eaten by a grizzly bear. The docu-film is worth a vision.

The bear that killed Treadwell and Huguenard was later encountered and killed by the group retrieving
the remains of the victims.

Why? In June 2013 I found rather fresh remains (bones) of two foals killed and eaten by bears some 100 - 200 meters
from the house I slept in, but had no wish to "punish" the bear for having done that. As far as I know, it was a female
with two half-grown-up cubs - they desperately needed proteins at that time of the year... and the meal was served
- an unprotected mare with two foals. So, they just helped themselves, anyone would have... The mare survived, of
course - too much trouble and much tougher meat... After all, two foals are quite enough to feed a family for a day
or two...
But after that I ceased believing in bears as "predominantly vegetarian"... mostly berries and such...
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:58 am

Ruggero Morimando wrote:Captive bred snakes tend to be tamer than wild specimens. This is the main difference. The contrary never happens. So: if a captive bred retic is always so hungry and bad tempered to try to eat even a broom and to literally let "explode" a sheep or a pig during constriction, you can argue what the same guy in the wild would or could do to humans...


That's a rather bold statement that I wouldn't agree with and you are contradicting yourself. Think about what you are saying. So you first say "tend to be" than you say "the contrary never happens"...? Following your logic if this bad tempered captive you talk about is the worst captive case, and you claim all wild ones are always worse than that, then this would mean that every wild python would "jump" and try to strangle brooms, branches, people and whatever is in it's range all the time! Then how do these people that take photos of wild pythons manage to survive unharmed (including their cameras, brooms or whatever they carry)? No, I wouldn't say every captive snake is calmer than a wild one. You can't compare the two. It's like comparing the character and behavior of a person who was born and grew up in jail with one that was born and grew up free in the countryside. Yes, they both have their instincts but very different life experiences that shape their characters.

And to continue the "python-bear" theme. Would you then say that all captive bears are calmer than wild ones? Unfortunately I've seen the sad sight of bears in zoos that behave insanely, just walking non-stop back and forth in their enclosure looking like they want to rip somebody up to pieces. I wouldn't make such an animal a subject for studying behavior of bears in the wild.
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Frédéric Seyffarth » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:09 pm

Hello all,

I would like to share my opinion again. I kept snakes of various species in captivity for years, including some classified as "very bad temperament". I don't like this word, i would say "of high defensive temperament". The fact is that yes, they are many differences between individuals. And in the wild it is the same thing. I met some very "gentle" reticulated pythons as some "very defensives" ones, no differences between captives and wilds. A photograph was severely injuried in the face during a "shooting session" with a subadult reticulated python in Malaysia.
And even if it is a little out of subject, i think it is difficult to compare the behavior of a bear and a python. Most snakes (with some shades) are basics animals while bears have a more advanced behavior, more easily affected by captivity. I worked as zookeeper and main zookeeper for thirteen years (with snakes, birds, and...bears), and i recently resigned from my job because i don't support the captives conditions anymore. I admit that some zoological parks have made efforts in recent years but not enought. It is sad.

Thanks for reading, and opinions.

Regards

Fred
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ruggero M. » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:50 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:
Ruggero Morimando wrote:Captive bred snakes tend to be tamer than wild specimens. This is the main difference. The contrary never happens. So: if a captive bred retic is always so hungry and bad tempered to try to eat even a broom and to literally let "explode" a sheep or a pig during constriction, you can argue what the same guy in the wild would or could do to humans...


That's a rather bold statement that I wouldn't agree with and you are contradicting yourself. Think about what you are saying. So you first say "tend to be" than you say "the contrary never happens"...? Following your logic if this bad tempered captive you talk about is the worst captive case, and you claim all wild ones are always worse than that, then this would mean that every wild python would "jump" and try to strangle brooms, branches, people and whatever is in it's range all the time! Then how do these people that take photos of wild pythons manage to survive unharmed (including their cameras, brooms or whatever they carry)? No, I wouldn't say every captive snake is calmer than a wild one. You can't compare the two. It's like comparing the character and behavior of a person who was born and grew up in jail with one that was born and grew up free in the countryside. Yes, they both have their instincts but very different life experiences that shape their characters.

And to continue the "python-bear" theme. Would you then say that all captive bears are calmer than wild ones? Unfortunately I've seen the sad sight of bears in zoos that behave insanely, just walking non-stop back and forth in their enclosure looking like they want to rip somebody up to pieces. I wouldn't make such an animal a subject for studying behavior of bears in the wild.


Never said that...
Frederic has already answered: bears and snakes are not comparable.
A human being "in captivity" can become crazy and aggressive; a bear too.
A captive born snake kept in the right way in captivity would be in the worst hypothesis at a same aggressivity level of its wild counterpart, but normally it will grow up tamer than a wild one. Tame means that you can handle it without risking a bite.
I don't see any contradiction in my statment.
Never said that every wild python is or would be more aggressive than the aggressive captive born python of my friends.
I wanted only to underline that the main difference between wild and captive bred snakes is (differently from bears, monkeys, and so on) essentially only the fact that the vast majority of captive bred snakes are less aggressive and less prone to bite humans because they are used to be handled. And the answer of Frederic completed my statement... :D ;)
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:42 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:(1) Never said that...
. . . .
(2) I don't see any contradiction in my statment.
(3) Never said that every wild python is or would be more aggressive than the aggressive captive born python of my friends.

Well, Ilian is obviously a very good logician... (1) You DID "say that", (2) there IS a contradiction in your statement, and,
again, (3) you DID "say that". Be you aware of it or not, but Ilian is formally right... That's, of course, logical nitpicking,
for the like of which I've barely escaped being banned from this forum, more than once, so I do know...
Ilian, purely logically, you are completely right - but take care and beware... if you get on the Admin's nerves...
Ruggero, you've been talking complete sense all the time, and interesting at that, thank you. Keep on, and just ignore
the nitpickers (including me.)
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:33 am

Thanks Bero, but I'm a logical guy too, maybe only with some minor problems with the english language.
Saying that "on average" captive bred snakes are less aggressive and less prone to bite is common sense and we all know that this is a fact.
But this obvious fact does not necessarily means also that the tamest python in the world has to be a captive bred one: it could also be that the guinness record of the most dangerous retic ever existed could be given to the captive born and kept retic of my german friends.
Where is the contradiction?
One thing is the "average", the "likelihood" of an event: another thing are the actual single events.
I really don't understand where I contradict myself.... :D ;)
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:06 am

Ruggero, the contradiction was in your words but to most of us here English is not the mother tongue so let's not turn this into a discussion.

My point was that I agree with what you said - it is possible that the python saw the man as prey and did attack, kill and ate him, but the example of captive's character was irrelevant in this case and was not what convinced me that you were right. In other words your argument would have been absolutely valid without this example. And just to add one more think - when I made the comparison with a bear I knew you're going to give me the argument of the differences between mammal and reptile and so on, but no matter what everybody says I'm sure that being captive does affect the behavior/character of any living thing (positively or negatively is a matter of view). So big complex brain or not a python does not behave as it's suppose to (as Nature intended, that is) when its entire living space throughout its life has been barely enough to stretch its body in full length.
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:31 am

Dear Ilian, I understand what you meant, and I partially agree with you: captivity can influnce living creatures behaviour.
But, and this is an important difference, the lower you go in the complexity of the living creature, the less meaningful becomes the influence of captivity in behaviour.
A human being suffers a lot from being kept in captivity; a bear too and you cannot make 'reliable observations' (or at least observations applicable also in a wild situation) watching a bear in captivity...
But for a snake (if well kept in captivity) this factor is not so important. And I'm sure you will agree with me if I write that for a paramecium the distinction between "wild" and "in captivity" is virtually not existing: a paramecium will behave exactly the same in the water of a swamp as in the water of your personal laboratory... :lol:
Many years ago, I saw some Gonyosoma oxycephala specimens in the reptilarium of Zurich: the terrarium was so well made that seemed to be a real tropical rain forest, and the snakes were lying among branches and foliage in the same manner as you can find them in the Khao Yai National Park in Thailand.
Maybe subtle differences were anyway present.... probably the Gonyosoma of Zurich were more used to be handled by humans... but certainly their situation and well-being was very near to the one of wild specimens and surely not comparable with the one of a captive bear, or elephant or hippopotamus!

I hope my point of view is better explained now... :)
And, I repeat, the main difference between captive bred and wild snakes is, normally, the fact that captive snakes are less "shy" and less "aggressive" towards humans... I cannot really see other big differences, and I've kept snakes in captivity for years...
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:46 pm

Ruggero, speaking purely from scientific point of view and using only the things that we have so far "proved" and agreed to be "true", yes everything you say is correct.

But I'm sure you'd also agree that there's a huge amount about snakes or anything else that we don't know yet, and we keep on discovering and learning "new" things. Recently it was discovered that some turtles use sounds (at frequencies that we can't hear) to communicate with their young before and shortly after they hatch, and maybe also with other adults. So while until now people that kept those turtles in captivity thought they've created an environment that is exactly the same as in the wild and affects little the behavior of the turtles, have to also consider their sensitivity to sounds and particularly at frequencies that we can't hear. There's been calls for studying the effects of ships on the turtles in the same way they did for dolphins and whales. So no, the differences between the natural environment of Gonyosoma and the Zurich terrarium are not subtle as you say, not the least because in the wild those snakes would never experience crowds of people looking at them through a glass, knocking on it, shouting, taking photos with camera flashes and so on. The right temperature and humidity although ensuring the good physical health of the captive snakes doesn't mean that it alone does the same for their mental health, hence behavior. Nobody has been inside the head of a snake for now ;) And who knows maybe the behavior of a paramecium in your lab is indeed affected by some subtle differences in the environment which we don't know of yet. Until it is "proven" otherwise you can't just say with such certainty that there's no "other big difference" between the behavior of captive and wild snakes but the fact that captives are "less shy and less aggressive towards humans."

I guess we agree on most things and most importantly on the initial question - it is 50/50 whether that python killed or scavenged the man, but we look at the same things with different eyes.
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