Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:49 pm

Thanks again, Ilian: the discussion is interesting and beautiful, because it's also a "philosophical" discussion, I understand well what you write, but I must add few other words, in order to be complete. And I will write about snakes, because they are the only animals I know well, together with human beings... (I'm a medicine doctor... :lol: ).

Let's go back to the oxycephalas of Zurich zoo.
I wrote that their "artificial" environment was very near to their natural one in Thailand: a huge, walk in reptilarium, with living plants, water sources and everything else.

You wrote, approximately (correct me if the sense does not correspond): "Beautiful terrarium, but nobody can affirm or deny that the presence of the tourists in front of the terrarium could have a strong effect which influenced the behaviour of the snakes...."

Ok: first objection of mine. Who does affirm one thing, he or she must carry the proofs of his/her affirmation. Otherwise I could also write: "Who can say / deny that the different latitude of Zurich or the stars above Zurich could play a considerable role in oxycephala behaviour?" There is nothing that could let us think towards a similar concept... simply so...

But there's more. And I've got a picture for this.
oxy.jpg


This G.oxycephala was photographed in Kao Yai, very near a path where hundreds of tourists walked regularly during the day. I was the only tourist who saw the snake. Probably this snake watched at least hundred walkers passing by itself before I could notice its presence.
So: the fact that oxycephalas come in close visual contact with many humans/tourists also "in the wild" is a fact. And a fact that absolutely does not upset oxys behaviour or let them go crazy... :lol:

But I would carry another more interesting fact.
If a "visual contact" with humans can happen in the wild and does actually happen, what can we say about snake handling, which is a rather normal practice with captive snakes, even if kept in large walk in terraria?
Could handling cause terrible psychological damages in snakes and deeply alters natural snake behaviour?

Look at this picture, of an aesculapian snake found in spring in Croatia:
saettone.jpg


I've seen this male aesculapian while it was looking for something: maybe prey but I think more probably a female.
I took the snake up in my hands, photographed it, and after a couple of minutes released it.
It went on searching, as if nothing had happened, and I continued to watch it crawling back and forth for many minutes again and again…
So: handling is not so terribly “harmful” for snakes, and not even for wild ones…
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:09 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:So: handling is not so terribly “harmful” for snakes, and not even for wild ones…

I would certainly agree with that. Let's not exaggerate. For a few moments after being released,
they seem not to know what to do, but then they do - and just go their way.
Of course, I mean GENTLE handling, as gentle as we can provide, not molesting...
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:26 pm

Well, my point, which started the discussion, was more of a "I wonder what this particular python did in this particular case?" type of approach to the question. We would never know so I just assumed one of the possible scenarios, and it certainly didn't have anything to do with whether handling is harmful to snakes or whether captive ones are more aggressive than wild ones. I didn't like the example and comparison because it was irrelevant and setting "rules" like the aforementioned doesn't help us understand snakes behavior better. And for those who have kept snakes for years or those who have studied, observed, photographed and so on in the wild and think they know everything about them I'll finish with this quote from Bernd Heinrich's "Winter World":

"Animals are dynamic. Each animal's choices fit in somewhere in a long continuum of almost anything that can be measured or imagined. Different terms may apply in any one animal in varying degree, depending on circumstances, but ultimately the species, and often the individual, fashion their own solutions to fit the situation or the occasion.

...But animals don't follow rules or easily allow us to pigeonhole them into convenient intellectual boxes. A "rule" is nothing more than a consistency of response that we have deduced animals exhibit because it serves their interests. Rules are the sum of decisions made by individuals. They are a result. The chaos, and the art, of nature remains."
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:55 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:Well, my point, which started the discussion, was more of a "I wonder what this particular python did in this particular
case?" type of approach to the question.

This particular python obviously swallowed a human he could manage. Whether he "scavenged" him or strangled him,
is not the issue. Most probably, strangled him. (Why would a man just happen to drop dead in his field, for a python
of that size to scavenge him? Occam's razor...)
May I remind you, that the original question, initiating this "thread", was "fake or not". Everyone agreed - not fake.
Everything else was "philosophy" - not bad as such, but having almost nothing to do with the initial dilemma...
So, case closed?
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Two addictional thoughts about this fact.

In SE Asia men usually eat snakes, even rodkills.
And this happens normally in rural areas.
A 7 meter long retic means a lot of meat: a reasonable possibility is that the man tried at first to kill the snake, and, doing this, the role predator/prey was inverted...

Second observation.
Contrictor snakes usually kill their prey with a mix of asphixia (blocking the respiratory movements of the torax) and, as incredible as it may sound, direct heart failure by restricting with huge compression the heart movements. And big retics have enough strength to let a pig bowel literally explode...
So "killed by strangling" is probably not the correct term: killed "by constriction" is a more adequate terminology...
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:39 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:So "killed by strangling" is probably not the correct term: killed "by constriction" is a more adequate terminology...

Doing the very thing you should beware (according to Berislav). Welcome to the "nitpicker's club" ;) Joking aside this is, of course, true.

Excluding the psychological element of fear of humans (that can be prey as well as predator) to the snake I'm more interested in the mechanics of the first part of a python (or any other constrictor) attack. Once the snake has the prey in its coils it is very clear what is going to happen and the python's abilities strength and technique when constricting are well known. However, before the constriction takes place the snake has to strike, bite/secure the prey, throw its coils around it, and only after this the constriction can begin. Due to the upright posture of biped humans I've always thought it would be difficult for a snake hidden on the ground to do that to a human passing by. I'm not sure how this is going to work if the python is up in a tree above the human...There's a lot of footage/photos of huge snakes eating or constricting huge prey (e.g. antelope, crocodiles, etc.) but I've never seen this first moment of the hunt- the attack, captured on camera (I mean with big prey).
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Mario Schweiger » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:55 pm

I'm hoping, the herping season with many, many observations will start across whole Europe immediately :lol:
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Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:28 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:Two addictional thoughts about this fact.
In SE Asia men usually eat snakes, even rodkills.

When it comes to the "nitpicker's club", did you really mean "addictional" thoughts, or just plainly "additional"?
Did you mean "rodkills" or "roadkills"? (A "rodkill" is also an option for killing a snake, and a quite frequent one
at that...)
And in SE Asia only "men" eat snakes, women don't?

And YES, on my part, it's "constriction", not "strangling"...

Let's just drop it, Mario is quite right.
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:23 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:
Ruggero Morimando wrote:Two addictional thoughts about this fact.
In SE Asia men usually eat snakes, even rodkills.

When it comes to the "nitpicker's club", did you really mean "addictional" thoughts, or just plainly "additional"?
Did you mean "rodkills" or "roadkills"? (A "rodkill" is also an option for killing a snake, and a quite frequent one
at that...)
And in SE Asia only "men" eat snakes, women don't?

And YES, on my part, it's "constriction", not "strangling"...

Let's just drop it, Mario is quite right.


Let's drop. But it's very different to underline, as I've done, with no polemical or bad intentions a technical/medical question (how constrictor snakes kill their prey) from underline with subtle or clear polemical intentions my pure "orthographic" errors given by my poor knowledge, as I've already admitted, of the english language. I wrote "men", but it was clear to everybody, included laymen, I meant "people". You wrote "strangled", but if a layman reads this word, obviously thinks that snakes "strangle" their prey, which is a completely false concept, but a very widespread false concept.
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Re: Missing man found in belly of 7m-long python

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:47 pm

You wrote "strangled", but if a layman reads this word, obviously thinks that snakes "strangle" their prey, which is
a completely false concept, but a very widespread false concept.

You mean this?

Be2935_CROP_RED.jpg
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