expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

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expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Thomas Reich » Thu May 11, 2017 1:12 pm

Deutsche Bahn budgets 15 million € to relocate threatened sand and wall lizards, between €2,000 and €4,000 per creature:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... il-project

in German:
http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitges ... umsiedlung
http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Eine-Eide ... 30624.html

As far as I know, Podarcis muralis is not native in the Stuttgart area.

What do you think about this?
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Thu May 11, 2017 2:45 pm

it would be cheaper if not concessions and premissions and whole bureucracy
also lizards run away from building site because of noise etc so they will run away themselves from the site, no? also these are not really precious species, i would not put my money into it voluntarily
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Niklas Ban » Thu May 11, 2017 5:22 pm

In case of sandlizard this is fully normal and if there were no laws about that the sandlizard would be extinct in many areas (so in my city). The Deutsche Bahn has enough money for that. In case of the muralis I have quite hard opinion, if they are autochthonous build what you want. But it is a european species and protected by law, so you don't have a chance.
From the economic point of view it is quite good for biologist and landcape ecologist, cause such problems are good jobs.
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Peter Oefinger » Thu May 11, 2017 7:42 pm

This case caused a lot of public excitement.
Some thoughts about this:
1. The fact that protected animals are actually protected generally matches my understanding of a democratic state.
2. The overall project costs are roundabout 10.000.000.000 EUR. The costs for the lizards are 15.000.000 EUR. That's 0.15%
3. I guess, the costs for the relocation of the lizard could actually be lower, But this is a problem of administrative processes & rules.To optimize that, a deep dive into administrative law would be necessary which is maybe out of this forum's scope.
4. The fact fact that Deutsche Bahn published this as a negative news illustrates that the climate of the complete Stuttgart 21 project has been poisoned from the very beginning. I know examples from other companies which did such projects voluntarily (such projects fit perfectly in the CSR reports...).

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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Thu May 11, 2017 8:39 pm

" of a democratic state."
democracy has not much to do with the rule of law
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 12, 2017 10:22 am

Niklas Ban wrote:But it is a european species and protected by law, so you don't have a chance.

You meant to write allochtonous, I presume? I tend to agree...

Niklas Ban wrote:But it is a european species and protected by law, so you don't have a chance.

I am assuming by "European species" you mean under protection through the Habitat Directive. However, I believe the protection only applies within the natural range of a species. If I release Triturus cristatus in the Algarve, (fortunately) no one will protect them. The same applies or should apply (but is often overlooked) for muralis.
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 12, 2017 10:23 am

Imagine what you could do for endangered species and populations with 15 mil euro... :evil:
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Peter Oefinger » Fri May 12, 2017 10:48 am

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Imagine what you could do for endangered species and populations with 15 mil euro... :evil:

I don't see your point: The 15 mil € includes the price for the land, Deutsche Bahn had to buy for compensation of 30 km railway route. Compensation reas are part of the game.
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Peter Oefinger » Fri May 12, 2017 11:17 am

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:I am assuming by "European species" you mean under protection through the Habitat Directive. However, I believe the protection only applies within the natural range of a species.

German law doesn't take into account that muralis only occurs in certain areas in Germany nor does it adress the subspecies level (The fact that the allochtonous muralis in that area are Italian (maculiventris?) and not Central European brongniardii is what concerns several people).
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Re: expensive relocation of lizards near Stuttgart

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri May 12, 2017 1:09 pm

Yes, of course, the compensation rules are in play, but I'd rather use that money to save populations that are on the brink of extinction than some lizards that are only there due to fairly recent human action. But, I'll admit, that's also up for debate - where do you draw the line when it comes to how en when species arrived by human transport and management of areas....?

Peter Oefinger wrote:German law doesn't take into account that muralis only occurs in certain areas in Germany

If you are dealing with a (usually) incompletely documented historical origin of populations, it's of course hard to tell which is which, but in essence I am fairly certain that's incorrect application of the HR...
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