Catching vipers for photography

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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:52 pm

We indeed have the hunter (gatherer) in us and not only metaphorically but quite litterally. Homo sapiens genes didn't have the chance to keep up with the super fast development of our social system and lifestyle, so it's completely understandable that we have these urges to catch animals. Of course, we now also have enough knowledge to know that we have to do this responsibly.

Gregoire, I don't believe in the drone theory. It would take thousands of years to uproot those instincts to go out there, not a few generations.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:00 am

Ilian Velikov wrote: it's completely understandable that we have these urges to catch animals

but not snakes
humans evolved innate fear of snakes not without reason
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Guillaume Gomard » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:56 am

Interesting post, featuring some very honest answers!

I also confess that when I started photographing snakes (especially vipers), I used to handle them a bit to get what I considered at the time to be the best shot. Now I make almost exclusively in situ pictures, with some exceptions (for example when I travel to the other end of the world and find my targeted species). Of course this means a lot of pictures that end up in trash folder, but it's part of the game and it makes photo sessions even more challenging.

Now I also make a distinction between one herper who is gently handling a viper to take a decent pic within 2 min, and a group of 10 people gathered around a single specimen that is flashed for 15 min. I personally don't like the latter situation, which makes me think of a herpetologists gang bang. In the same vein, I would not keep a specimen over night to take a cool shot during the golden hour, I prefer to have a moderate quality picture but limit the disturbance of the animal.

Since Ilian was mentioning that he quickly goes through pictures that always show the same type of pose, I admit I often do the same with snake portraits with soft focus all around (something you see more on more in this forum). Some of these pics are extremely well executed, very pleasant to see, but I still find it more interesting to watch snakes in their habitat, instead of having a very blurry background (something you could also do in a studio with kept animals).
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:34 pm

Guillaume Gomard wrote:Since Ilian was mentioning that he quickly goes through pictures that always show the same type of pose, I admit I often do the same with snake portraits with soft focus all around (something you see more on more in this forum). Some of these pics are extremely well executed, very pleasant to see, but I still find it more interesting to watch snakes in their habitat, instead of having a very blurry background (something you could also do in a studio with kept animals).


That's exactly what I meant + the tense ready-to-strike pose in (almost) all of them! Thanks Guillaume for explaining this nicely. And I also agree with your views on handling and photography.

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:Ilian Velikov wrote:
it's completely understandable that we have these urges to catch animals

but not snakes
humans evolved innate fear of snakes not without reason


Well, now...That's another big debate. Did humans evolve with fear of snakes or is it a cultural thing? We've discussed this question here before...Be careful with the word "fear" though because it's completely different from "caution". I'm pretty sure hunter-gatherers hunted and ate snakes, in fact it is still done in many places of the world (Africa, Japan, some parts of Europe...). So the fact that they new a snake could be dangerous didn't mean they "feared" it and didn't hunt it. Don't forget we are talking about intelligent primates that co-operated in groups to hunt down animals as big as mammoths! A mammoth is much more dangerous and intimidating than a snake and still it was not a match for humans, so what is there to fear in a snake - an animal that is very easy to kill even by a single human let alone a co-operating band of hunters?
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:33 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:
Guillaume Gomard wrote:Since Ilian was mentioning that he quickly goes through pictures that always show the same type of pose, I admit I often do the same with snake portraits with soft focus all around (something you see more on more in this forum). Some of these pics are extremely well executed, very pleasant to see, but I still find it more interesting to watch snakes in their habitat, instead of having a very blurry background (something you could also do in a studio with kept animals).


That's exactly what I meant + the tense ready-to-strike pose in (almost) all of them! Thanks Guillaume for explaining this nicely. And I also agree with your views on handling and photography.

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:Ilian Velikov wrote:
it's completely understandable that we have these urges to catch animals

but not snakes
humans evolved innate fear of snakes not without reason


Well, now...That's another big debate. Did humans evolve with fear of snakes or is it a cultural thing? We've discussed this question here before...Be careful with the word "fear" though because it's completely different from "caution". I'm pretty sure hunter-gatherers hunted and ate snakes, in fact it is still done in many places of the world (Africa, Japan, some parts of Europe...). So the fact that they new a snake could be dangerous didn't mean they "feared" it and didn't hunt it. Don't forget we are talking about intelligent primates that co-operated in groups to hunt down animals as big as mammoths! A mammoth is much more dangerous and intimidating than a snake and still it was not a match for humans, so what is there to fear in a snake - an animal that is very easy to kill even by a single human let alone a co-operating band of hunters?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... fears.html
mammoths are not venomous and have more meet than snakes
it is possible that zig-zag pattern on snakes' back make fear more intense
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:01 pm

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... fears.html
mammoths are not venomous and have more meet than snakes
it is possible that zig-zag pattern on snakes' back make fear more intense


Michal, psychology is not an exact science (some might even say it's not science at all) let alone "experimental psychology". Just because some guy that was afraid of snakes and spiders as a child is trying to justify his fear doesn't prove anything. However, I can give you a very simple observation that backs up the "cultural fear" theory. When my three year old daughter started walking (over an year ago) we were taking walks in the park. Whenever, a big carnivore (i.e. a dog) started running towards her she was instinctively afraid and was hiding behind my legs although the dog was just playful and not aggressive at all. We had to teach her not to be afraid of dogs. That's an innate fear, a result of primates being hunted by big carnivores for ages. On the other hand when we were going out herping with her she wouldn't have thought twice to pick up a snake out of curiousity not knowing at all whether it was venomous or not, so we had to teach her to be "afraid" or more precisely cautions about snakes and we had to teach her about the zig-zag pattern and telling snakes apart an so on. And she was also catching spiders around the house since she was one. This is NOT an innate fear but fear that is acquired and learned! So if this guy that wrote that article was trying to find out why he was afraid of snakes and spiders as a child, the answer is very simple - because his parents were terrified by them and he probably watched too many films or read too many books where those creatures are antagonists.

And your argument that the mammoth is not venomous is just ridiculous! Think for a moment what you are saying before you write it because you are on the border of embarrassing yourself. A mammoth is a six ton animal with huge tusks that can kill a human like a fly. Do you think it has to be venomous for people to fear it? Are bears venomous? Lions, tigers? Saber-tooth tigers? Yet I'm sure you're going to soil your pants if you stumble upon one of those in the wild even if it's just sleeping let alone if it approaches you. And so would I and every other person. That's an innate fear!
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:36 pm

"experimental psychology".

i am reffering to evolutionary psychology
and it is a common knowledge in this domain that fear of snakes is innate https://www.livescience.com/2348-fear-snakes.html same with spiders
your evidence is merely anegdotical

Do you think it has to be venomous for people to fear it?

No, I did not even sugest it.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:09 pm

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:i am reffering to evolutionary psychology

No you were not! The article you linked to in your previous post "appears in the September issue of the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General."
You are talking before reading as usual.

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:Do you think it has to be venomous for people to fear it?

No, I did not even sugest it.


Yes, you did! - "mammoths are not venomous and have more meet than snakes" was your reply to my argument that if humans were not afraid to hunt mammoth why would they be afraid to hunt snakes.

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:your evidence is merely anegdotical

And no my evidence is not anegdotical young man. Every person with a child would have observed the same behavior if their child was ever exposed to dogs and snakes. In fact I'm going to ask every person on this forum with a child to come up and honestly say - was your child afraid the first time they saw a snake? Or did you have to say "no, you can't touch this!"

Humans are not born afraid of snakes and every child would carelessly try and touch them unless their parents say not to. They learn to be careful(or afraid) around snakes either through their parents or through popular believes (i.e. culture), media and so on. And the argument that people have innate fear of spiders is just absurd! Why would they fear a tiny arachnid that they can squash without any effort? Cautious of the dangerous ones, maybe, but "innate fear" - no. Just because an animal is venomous or poisonous doesn't automatically mean that every living thing including humans have developed evolutionary fear of them. There are many other circumstances that affect whether one animal is afraid of another. There are many venomous fish too, by that logic we should have innate fear of fish as well is that right?...Or maybe innate fear of frogs?
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ruggero M. » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:39 pm

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:
"experimental psychology".

i am reffering to evolutionary psychology
and it is a common knowledge in this domain that fear of snakes is innate https://www.livescience.com/2348-fear-snakes.html same with spiders
your evidence is merely anegdotical

Do you think it has to be venomous for people to fear it?

No, I did not even sugest it.



Dear Michal, the article you link, paradoxically, is against the innate nature of fear for snakes: "While babies and very young children do not usually fear snakes, they are unusually skilled at detecting them and show a predisposition to learn to fear snakes if they have bad experiences or even if they are exposed to negative portrayals of them in the media, the scientists found."

This is copied pasted from your article!

Obviously children recognize easily an image of a snake (or of a spider) among many others: snakes and spiders are very strange animals, very different from us! I think children could easily recognize an octopus image too among many cats images... :lol:
Snakes are like living "ropes" and spiders have 8 limbs... it is extremely easy to instill fear or hate towards these types of animals in young children: this is clear.

In many cultures snakes are hated and considered the symbol of evil: but in other cultures (in Induism, for instance) snakes are respected as "gods" or something like that.
So: the same (strange) animal can generate in humans totally opposite sentiments!

In humans ther's a mix of genes and education that is difficult to separate: we have areas of the brain deputated for languages, but we need someone who teaches us a language or at least speaks with us when we are very young in order to actually speak...

I always loved snakes, and I always hated spiders.
Are these sentiments of mine innate? :cry: :?:
If yes, I'm the living proof that love for snakes is an innate one... :lol:

More probably, part of my sentiments are "innate", but a big part of them derives also from education and early experiences.
My mother hates spiders just as I do, and, maybe, as a child, I could have "taken" this hate from her, because spiders are often encountered in houses.
But my mother hates snakes too... The main difference is that snakes are not encountered in "normal houses" inside european towns, where I was born and educated.
And a aunt of mine, I can remember this well, had interesting books about reptiles and snakes, which she showed me with passion and interest when I was a young boy.
So, all is probably due to a mix of some "genes" (genes are anyway the "basis" of every sentiment or behaviour!) ... plus the type of education we receive and the experiences we make!


P.S. To remain in topic, capturing snakes allows to notice some particulars (for instance "anomalies" of scales or ventral colour/markings) which can be impossible or very difficult to detect with an in situ picture.
Just as example: with my passion for capturing snakes I had (and still have) I could had in my hands an aesculapian snake with completely and heavily keeled dorsal scales! With a normal in situ picture, from a certain distance, this interesting particular would have been totally lost. And, in fact, we read in the books that aesculapian snakes have smooth dorsal scales... or at least only slighly keeled dorsal scales on the posterior part of the body...
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:15 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:P.S. To remain in topic, capturing snakes allows to notice some particulars (for instance "anomalies" of scales or ventral colour/markings) which can be impossible or very difficult to detect with an in situ picture.
Just as example: with my passion for capturing snakes I had (and still have) I could had in my hands an aesculapian snake with completely and heavily keeled dorsal scales! With a normal in situ picture, from a certain distance, this interesting particular would have been totally lost. And, in fact, we read in the books that aesculapian snakes have smooth dorsal scales... or at least only slighly keeled dorsal scales on the posterior part of the body...


Thanks Ruggero! My question was (and that's why I put it in the thread's title) about catching snakes for "photography", i.e. just getting a nice photo of them. There's no doubt that if you would like to examine details like this it is much better to catch the snake (although you could see this in a good in-situ photo later on). I'm by no means against catching snakes (I do it myself) but with vipers in particular I often find it unnecessary, even if I'm abroad looking for a species that I've never seen. Example: I was in Galicia, Spain this year. I've never seen a V. seoanei before. I was walking along a decked footpath on a beach. I stepped to the side in the sand and turned around just in time to see a seoanei disappearing under the deck. After a sigh of relief that I didn't step on it (I indeed stepped just a few centimeters away from it) I just hung around for about 15 min looking in the area for lizards and eventually other vipers after which I returned to the spot and there was the same snakes next to the deck just a couple of meters away from the spot I first saw it. I carefully sneaked in close enough to get very decent natural in-situ photos of it and even close ups of the head. If I had a better camera I would have done even better. And there I was completely satisfied and having a great experience of finding a new snake species and taking photos of it without having to catch it. It's true I missed another snake close to this one. All I could see was a dark coloured tail (so not even sure about the species) disappearing under the deck. But what the hell, you win some you loose some, it was still an amazing experience. It's all a matter of attitude I guess. It's like with fishing - it would be really boring if you caught every fish that had a bite on your lure. That's part of the fun, going back and trying again. I don't approve of taking good photos at all costs!

Ruggero Morimando wrote:Dear Michal, the article you link, paradoxically, is against the innate nature of fear for snakes: "While babies and very young children do not usually fear snakes, they are unusually skilled at detecting them and show a predisposition to learn to fear snakes if they have bad experiences or even if they are exposed to negative portrayals of them in the media, the scientists found."


:lol: :lol: :lol: This guy apparently didn't have kids. It would have saved him years of research.
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