Catching vipers for photography

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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:22 pm

the reason why we also find those last ones cute and snakes and spiders not

flowers are not cute i think
In both experiments, videotapes of model monkeys behaving fearfully were spliced so that it appeared that the models were reacting fearfully either to fear-relevant stimuli (toy snakes or a toy crocodile), or to fear-irrelevant stimuli (flowers or a toy rabbit). Observer groups watched one of four kinds of videotapes for 12 sessions. Results indicated that observers acquired a fear of fear-relevant stimuli (toy snakes and toy crocodile), but not of fear-irrelevant stimuli (flowers and toy rabbit).

http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-11563-001
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:50 pm

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:the reason why we also find those last ones cute and snakes and spiders not

flowers are not cute i think
In both experiments, videotapes of model monkeys behaving fearfully were spliced so that it appeared that the models were reacting fearfully either to fear-relevant stimuli (toy snakes or a toy crocodile), or to fear-irrelevant stimuli (flowers or a toy rabbit). Observer groups watched one of four kinds of videotapes for 12 sessions. Results indicated that observers acquired a fear of fear-relevant stimuli (toy snakes and toy crocodile), but not of fear-irrelevant stimuli (flowers and toy rabbit).

http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-11563-001


And yet again you are missing the point - the observing monkeys acquired fear of this and that by watching other monkeys being afraid. So as I said in my previous post (if you try and read carefully for once) although we might have a predisposition to acquiring fear of some animals that are very different and unfamiliar in appearance to us we are not born with an inbuilt fear of them, but rather like those monkeys we acquire it by watching (or listening, or reading) other humans being afraid of them.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:54 pm

are not born with an inbuilt fear of them

yes i agree now
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Kristian Bell » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:01 pm

I recall reading something somewhere that suggested humans were pre-disposed to fearing certain types of animals, which notably all shared cave-dwelling in common (bats, snakes, centipedes and other similar 'creepy crawleys'). The reason given was this was a learnt fear from when we ourselves shared caves as living spaces with these animals. The logic makes sense but I cant find where I originally read this from to ascertain the reliability of the source. Its one of the eternal questions regarding the relative importance of nature vs nurture.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Kristian Bell » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:05 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:There are probably a number of sites which may receive a level of attention that actually reduces fitness at a population level

Agreed - hence my political use of 'minimal' ;)

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Personally, I have to admit I am a bit allergic to the sentimentalism people may have about handling animals. We can probably all take much more meaningful action to benefit conservation than deciding not to handle snakes. Doesn't have to mean we cannot think about this topic, but to me it is of little importance.

Agreed again - and this reminds me of a common sentiment amongst animal lovers who are so vehemently and incredibly anti-PETA. Sure they dont do a perfect job for animals but focusing attention on these isnt really hitting the true source of the problem nor the biggest offenders.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:47 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:The cons I think are pretty relevant on an individual level (viper vs photographer) - if handled the wrong way both could get hurt. Would you disagree with this and would you disregard such situation as not important?

I would regard such situation as not very important, yes.

Ilian Velikov wrote:I was simply asking about vipers in particular and catching them for just a trophy photo in particular. I didn't say anything about research or conservation.

I was trying to put things in perspective. Not talking about catching or handling for research or whatever so-called higher purpose (because is it really 'higher' and who's entitled to label it as such...?) either.

Ilian Velikov wrote:
Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:We can probably all take much more meaningful action to benefit conservation than deciding not to handle snakes.

Yeah, sure and we can probably all take much more meaningful action to benefit conservation than snapping photos and showing them to our friends online :twisted: ;)

I do both. I try not to care too much about whether this pleases other people or not. Although I'll try to spread a positive interest for herpetofauna, I also try not to care too much about whether other people do the same or not. To each his own.

Funny how a somewhat similar debate in the US is about collecting or not. Yet another perspective, in which a lot can be said about how limited the impact of collecting is. So catching vipers......

To offer perhaps some perspective, I'll add that I am a below-average snake hunter and that finding vipers is a fairly rare event for me. Last week, I personally found 4 in the Pyrenees in a very short time, which maybe never has happened to me before (that's how bad I am). I caught 3. If I would have found 10, I would probably only have caught the ones that look different. I'm surely not going to catch all, because the in situ thing is starting to look like a fun game to me too. This is my perspective. It's not any worse or better than anyone else's. I would never call someone brave because he 'admits' to like the hunt. It's just what it is, and at the end of the day we all probably are much more similar in our views towards nature than 99.9% of the world population.

I do not feel like doing a lot of back-and-forth on this, because to me it's a worn-out debate. I suppose it's impossible to state this without coming across as elitist, but it is what it is. I accept your potential contempt. ;)

Jeroen, stressing out hundreds of fire salamanders for nearly 10 years and not really ashamed about it. ;)
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:12 pm

Yet another perspective, in which a lot can be said about how limited the impact of collecting is.

Is this perspective credible? I know some speciels whose members were decimated due to wildlife trading, for example Laos warty newt.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:31 pm

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:
Yet another perspective, in which a lot can be said about how limited the impact of collecting is.

Is this perspective credible? I know some speciels whose members were decimated due to wildlife trading, for example Laos warty newt.

Rare or unsubstantiated cases, in general.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:31 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Michal Szkudlarek wrote:
Yet another perspective, in which a lot can be said about how limited the impact of collecting is.

Is this perspective credible? I know some speciels whose members were decimated due to wildlife trading, for example Laos warty newt.

Rare or unsubstantiated cases, in general.

Which cases are rare on unsubstantiated? Those in which capturing wild herptiles has allegedly small impact on health of population?
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:11 pm

Jeroen, sure everybody has their own views and as I said early in this discussion I'm not judging anybody. There's no contempt. Just talking about stuff...

And about the individual level thing and whether you think is important or not I only asked because in your book you have a big paragraph on how to handle amphibians and reptiles properly ;)
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