Catching vipers for photography

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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:16 pm

No you were not! The article you linked to in your previous post "appears in the September issue of the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General."

cant the two overlap?

if humans were not afraid to hunt mammoth why would they be afraid to hunt snakes.

becaue it is worth risk because mammoth has more meat

Why would they fear a tiny arachnid that they can squash without any effort?

in environment of evolutionary adaptedness there were apparently more dangerous spiders than european ones

There are many venomous fish too, by that logic we should have innate fear of fish as well is that right?

i think lionfish can evoke fear, they look dangerous

Or maybe innate fear of frogs?

frogs were not common in environment of evolutionary adaptedness
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:47 pm

Michal, evolutionary adaptedness (or adaptation) happened over millions of years in different places around the world. The earliest hominid we've found so far comes from what is now the Balkans, not Africa. (Human) evolution didn't happen only in one place and it didn't stop with Homo sapiens leaving Africa, so what you are saying is incorrect.

As Ruggero pointed out (and you unwillingly through you article) - "While babies and very young children do not usually fear snakes, they are unusually skilled at detecting them and show a predisposition to learn to fear snakes if they have bad experiences or even if they are exposed to negative portrayals of them in the media, the scientists found." I figured out this one myself in a day through my "anecdotal" observations without having to do any research. You have to learn to admit defeat rather than just coming up with incorrect arguments in a desperate attempt to win the argument. It's not about that, it's about learning the truth. And for this we can only rely on solid prove, such as observing the behavior of young humans, not on some guy who showed images of snakes to grown up students and they showed fear of them. The reaction of those people is irrelevant as they have already been "contaminated" by experiences in their early lives and cultural views.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Michal Szkudlarek » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:55 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:Michal, evolutionary adaptedness (or adaptation) happened over millions of years in different places around the world. The earliest hominid we've found so far comes from what is now the Balkans, not Africa. (Human) evolution didn't happen only in one place and it didn't stop with Homo sapiens leaving Africa, so what you are saying is incorrect.

Yes but we are adapted more to paleolithic african savanna than to modern civilization. Adaptation is not as fast as change of environment.
According to genetic and fossil evidence, archaic Homo sapiens evolved to anatomically modern humans solely in Africa, between 200,000 and 100,000 years ago, with members of one branch leaving Africa by 60,000 years ago and over time replacing earlier human populations such as Neanderthals and Homo erectus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:04 pm

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:Yes but we are adapted more to paleolithic african savanna than to modern civilization. Adaptation is not as fast as change of environment.


???? I don't see what this has to do with fear of snakes? You're just saying random facts now...

Michal Szkudlarek wrote:According to genetic and fossil evidence, archaic Homo sapiens evolved to anatomically modern humans solely in Africa, between 200,000 and 100,000 years ago, with members of one branch leaving Africa by 60,000 years ago and over time replacing earlier human populations such as Neanderthals and Homo erectus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens


Yes, we all(including kids in pre-school) know this Michal but thanks for pointing it out again. Read carefully - "evolved to anatomically modern humans solely in Africa". This doesn't mean that Homo sapiens ancestors originated in Africa or that they didn't pass their fear of particular animals (that they developed elsewhere) on to Homo sapiens. Or that Homo sapiens stopped developing fears or anything else after they left Africa.

Anyway, this is all very fun but I'd rather talk with someone more open-minded that is not just concerned with "having the last word".
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Clive Brignull » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:52 am

Hi, As for the capture of reptiles for photo's or any other reason I feel there is no reason catch the same species over and over again. I live near a large colony of Adders and although I must admit I have caught one, I have never had the urge to catch another, although I have seen hundreds since. There is just no need to do so. As for this fear of snakes. A little story...When I was about eight years old I was exploring an area behind my house when I lifted over a piece of tin only to find 12ft Grass snake beneath. (slight exaggeration). I dropped the tin and ran all the way home. Why ? fear or shock ?. Within 30 mins armed with gloves, net, and container I returned to the tin but alas it had gone. Why return,? curiosity?. challenge ?.Nearly 55 years later and I am still lifting over bits of tin. (not the same bit of tin i might ad). PS.I think the same thing would have happened if it had been some ones escaped tarantula. I was that sort of kid.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Kristian Bell » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:02 am

Its a good question and one I have asked myself a few times as I must admit most of my photos are taken following manipulation. I try the usual methods to minimise stress such as using gloves and hooks rather than tongs, and returning the animal to where it was found but I must concede I am unnecessarily stressing the animal for the sake of a photograph.

The reason why I do this is because in my opinion I get a much better shot - as others have mentioned, in situ often means messy, partially obscured glimpses of the animal, though I am in agreement that the very best photos are once in a lifetime in-situ moments. My favourite style at present is wide angle macro and this requires you to be one or two centimetres from the animal, and there are not many that allow this close an approach.

I justify my actions (perhaps wrongly) by telling myself the animal has gone through no more stress than a near-miss predatory event, I am spreading the beauty/appreciation of animals through photography (probably a weak argument) and finally, I live on an almost reptile-free island off the coast of the UK - i get about 2 weeks holiday a year to go out looking for reptiles. I do not have the luxury of most people on this forum to go and visit a local spot repeatedly over a year in the hopes of capturing an animal posed nicely in-situ. Once I have what I consider a nice photo of one species, I leave all subsequent individuals of that species alone. A case in point is that I no longer photograph nor disturb the few species that do occur locally to me so I feel overall, while ultimately it is a selfish action, it is one with minimal (if any) long term implications.
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:14 am

Kristian Bell wrote:while ultimately it is a selfish action, it is one with minimal (if any) long term implications.

There are probably a number of sites which may receive a level of attention that actually reduces fitness at a population level, but besides that I agree with the above. Personally, I have to admit I am a bit allergic to the sentimentalism people may have about handling animals. We can probably all take much more meaningful action to benefit conservation than deciding not to handle snakes. Doesn't have to mean we cannot think about this topic, but to me it is of little importance. When I get to posting my summer herping photos, you can all enjoy disliking my unnatural pictures. :twisted: :P ;)
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:19 am

On the side topic - I am/was really living by the notion that primates are born with a fear for snakes... :? A very short internet search, however, rather confuses than enlightens.

This is not too bad a read...

https://thehumanevolutionblog.com/2014/ ... ar-snakes/
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:24 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Personally, I have to admit I am a bit allergic to the sentimentalism people may have about handling animals.


There was no sentimentalism in my question and mentioned pros and cons of catching vipers for photography. The cons I think are pretty relevant on an individual level (viper vs photographer) - if handled the wrong way both could get hurt. Would you disagree with this and would you disregard such situation as not important? Also I think we generalized the topic a bit too much, i.e. handling (all)snakes/animals and if it does benefit conservation and so on. I was simply asking about vipers in particular and catching them for just a trophy photo in particular. I didn't say anything about research or conservation.

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:We can probably all take much more meaningful action to benefit conservation than deciding not to handle snakes.

Yeah, sure and we can probably all take much more meaningful action to benefit conservation than snapping photos and showing them to our friends online :twisted: ;)
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Re: Catching vipers for photography

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:42 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:On the side topic - I am/was really living by the notion that primates are born with a fear for snakes... A very short internet search, however, rather confuses than enlightens.

This is not too bad a read...

https://thehumanevolutionblog.com/2014/ ... ar-snakes/


It is rather confusing but I still haven't read anything to convince me in the "inbuilt fear" theory. If anything this article sort of confirms what I thought in parts:

"Importantly, these studies have revealed that humans have a predisposition toward fear of snakes and spiders rather than a universal and firmly programmed fear of them."


"Studies have shown that virtually all monkey species show a fear of snakes in the wild, while most monkeys in captivity do not."

"Most humans are not born afraid of snakes, but they are much more likely to become afraid of them than they are to become afraid of most other kinds of animals."

"Scientists studying fear conditioning have noticed that it is easier to train humans to fear snakes and spiders than things like friendly dogs and fluffy pillows."

The key word in the last sentence is "train" but also the fact that we are predisposed to fear snakes and spiders more than friendly dogs or bear cubs or kittens can be explained simply by the reason why we also find those last ones cute and snakes and spiders not - there are just too different from us. A cute baby mammal with a small nose/snout and two forward facing big eyes looks pretty much like a human baby so instinctively we would not be afraid and even like such a creature while an eight-legged creature with several eyes hanging on a thread of silk coming out its ass or a slithering creature with scaly body and no limbs and a forked tongue would naturally promote fear of the different/unknown/unfamiliar.

"This is especially true for children, and indeed, some very young children are afraid of these animals before ever having encountered them or heard about them."

I don't think that's true at all.

Also the fact that snakes have caused many deaths through evolutionary history is not a prove that we evolved an inbuilt fear of them. I'm sure many more deaths were caused by poisonous plants but we are far from afraid of plants. There are many other examples like this.
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