What is proper field herping conduct?

The place to talk about fieldtechnics, the stuff you use in the field and everything else

What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:06 pm

Leaving the lacerta.de discussion behind, I would like to hear your thoughts about how to behave during field herping. Some field herpers never catch or touch any animal, but that leaves them with only very short snake observations, I guess. So, what's your opinion on good or not?

What would the impact be of catching a snake on the survival of that animal?

Do you catch any snake, even if it's the 24th ammodytes of the day? In our team, we have some differing opinions about that sometimes, because some are fanatic snake hunters, who like the kick of catching. Good or bad?

Let's just hear each other out, without blaming anyone.

How do you feel about entering private property while herping? And nature reserves? And what about the legal aspects of catching?
Jeroen Speybroeck
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:18 am
Hometown: Merelbeke
country: Belgium

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Mladen Zadravec » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:59 pm

I always have the animal's well being first on my list of priorities, even above my own safety. If the animal is getting very stressed, I release it (if I have some scientific work to do, I try to do it as quickly as possible).

Do you catch any snake, even if it's the 24th ammodytes of the day? In our team, we have some differing opinions about that sometimes, because some are fanatic snake hunters, who like the kick of catching. Good or bad?

Sometimes I try to catch everything I find, sometimes I just stop long enough to see what it is and then move on. Depends on what it is and the habitat I found it in (if it's a muralis only a couple of cm away from his hole, chances are 99.99...% I won't even attempt to catch it). Also if I'm feeling lazy or not. :lol:
I don't have tongs, I rarely use hooks (even rarely for flipping stuff). I mostly do everything by hand (with thick good quality gloves on, of course).

What would the impact be of catching a snake on the survival of that animal?

Unless you cause an injury that in itself can be fatal or can cause something else which could lead to an increased chance of dieing, I don't think it would have such a big influence.
Yes, some stress out more than others, but if you're careful about it (if the animal won't calm down- release it; if it does- don't get it worked up again), again, it shouldn't have a big impact.

How do you feel about entering private property while herping?

Over 90% of herping on private property I do is on the hills where I have my vacation cottage. There a lot of weekenders have their cottages and the villagers have their orchards, vineyards, gardens... I have their permission for herping on their land, so I have no worries.
If I happen to end up on private property elsewhere, I always do my best not to disturb anything (i.e. flowerbeds).

Also with habitats- if there's something that can be flipped, I flip it only if I can place it back the way it was. Especially with something that's moist underneath.
User avatar
Mladen Zadravec
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Zagreb
Hometown: Zagreb
country: Croatia

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:08 pm

Well,I personally can't say that I'm against catching animals FOR A SHORT WHILE,to PHOTOGRAPH them! I myself practice this especially with snakes,because as you say...sometimes you just get a glimpse! With lizards,it's a different story..usually they will let you get closer to them so you are able to take some photos and even if they get out of site,you can easily relocate them (except if the terrain is very difficult),because of their 'run and stop' method of escape,so you can follow them for some time untill you get your pictures!That's why I thing catching lizards isn't that neccessary,except maybe if you encounter a certain species for the first time in your life!

Do you catch any snake, even if it's the 24th ammodytes of the day?


Certainly,not! If I catch a snake and take some up close photos of it and than I find more of the same species I'd rather try and get a in-situ photo,now that I have portraits,etc.
Nevertheless,people should be very carefull not to harm snakes when catching them!!! I never use sticks or something to press them behind the head or anywhere else,and never pull them by the tail if they are stuck in a place that can't be taken out of. I handle them gently and try to do it for as short time as posibble...and I don't handle venomous species!

And last but not least,I have to say that in-situ photos are the best photos!!! It's just that you can't always take such photos!
Ilian Velikov
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm
Hometown: Pravets
country: Bulgaria

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Sebastian Holzki » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:29 pm

I see it mostly as Ilian.
I also catch only non venomous snakes.
Where I live I can only find Natrix natrix and Vipera berus.
The Natrix I don´t catch often because I made portraits of them and now I try to get in situe photos.
Vipera berus I can photograph most time also without catching because they have not a so big flight distance.
User avatar
Sebastian Holzki
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 3:56 pm
Hometown: Berlin
country: Germany

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Mladen Zadravec » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:46 pm

What if everyone would do so? Would that still be OK?

I can only make assumptions on this one, because it's not a reality I can test in a simulator (or holodeck, lol)...

If everyone did it, we'd still have the same problem- they would be endangered because of too much attention. Stress would then be a very significant mortality rate factor. And there would also probably be a group of people trying to protect them from others... only this time from love, instead of hate towards them...

If not, why is it OK that we do?

This is a very interesting question! You really made me think on this one... :)
Is it OK that we do it? We tell ourselves it's because we do it for knowledge (scientific research) or that our desire to take their picture is a completely benign reason (compared to chopping their heads off, it most certainly is!)... but who are we to go to the animal's home and disrupt its daily activities, bothering it just to satisfy our curiosity & desires?
I don't know... I guess we're just interacting with the world that we live in and we're curious about it... and the creatures that are here with us... If the disturbance isn't too great, I think it's OK. But then again, the magnitude of the disturbance is estimated by my criteria... the snake most likely has a different oppinion... :lol:

And we do it because we're crazy enough to do it! (the good kind of crazy :D )
User avatar
Mladen Zadravec
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Zagreb
Hometown: Zagreb
country: Croatia

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:27 am

I guess we're just interacting with the world that we live in and we're curious about it... and the creatures that are here with us... If the disturbance isn't too great, I think it's OK.


I have to agree with that! We are humans! It's our nature..We study other creatures on that planet because we can! And I think we need that...and that the animals need it,too,because it's good to have that kind of humans and not only humans who kill and torture them! If that was the case there would be no life on Earth since we know who's the top redator! I mean,I understand what some people's concerns are on that issue but let's not "freak out" and get overprotective. I don't think stress can be a major cause of animals decline or extinction. Besides,let's say we don't catch any animals but just photograph them..You can't deny that our presence itself near a wild animal already causes certain amount of stress on that animal.You know,the snake doesn't see you standing with a camera in front of it and think "Oh he's just going to take some photos! It's OK..I'm just going to bask here in peace!" You already scared the shit out of it...That's why they get out of the way as quick as posibble. It's normal since they are not on top of the food chain and they recognize you as a predetor,no matter if you try to catch it or you just stay in front of it just watching! Plus,in my oppinion,that's the reason they should be used to a lifestyle with an amount of stress in it,they are used to being stalked,they are used to being the "prey" and they are used to be alert! It's not like they encounter stress for the first time since they exist and you give them a heart attack.Anyway,I'm not saying that we should catch every animal we see or that we should not be careful not to stress them too much! As it becomes clear,deciding to catch or not an animal depends on many factors and is different for different people! I think that respect and mindfulness in that kind of activities as filedherping should be the leading element no matter if you catch or if you don't catch the animals! But all of that is just my opinion..don't want to argue with anybody or to say to people what they have to do!
Ilian Velikov
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm
Hometown: Pravets
country: Bulgaria

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:38 am

Well, it's our nature to kill others in order to ensure a better life for our family/group and in large parts of the world, we got rid of that habit.


I was talking about the nature of curiosity,the fact that we got brains that are developed (under particular cercumstances) to a level that we don't only think of feeding,protecting territory,mating,etc. I was talking about the nature of a modern human being that needs to 'feed' it's brain in addition to feed it's body!As for the killing habit,I don't think we've lost it. It just that not all of us should do it nowadays...we got a particular part of the humans doing it for all of us!For example: killing to protect territory(if someone invades a country a war begins..or if you are illegally entering that country and you are palning to do something illegal(like terrorism0you can be killed);killing for feeding (we still eat other living beings only that not everybody should kill them for themselves-we got them already killed by someone and nicely packed in envelopes in the supermarket ).So,we've lost that habit only on first sight,I think!

For the stress,I agree that it could be very harmful in some cases (like the one you describe) but I was talking in general and mostly for the case where you are in the middle of nowhere! Of course,in particular cases we should not disturb the animals,if they are vulnerable in that place! That's why I said it depends on many factors'.But generally stress is the smallest problem compared to habitat destruction,collecting,etc. And I think animals CAN get used to dealing with people's presence but if humans were not enjoying walking in the woods,maybe this woods could've been cut down to make place for buidings and other shit that humans enjoy...and with that,(most) animals CAN'T deal!

As said, with every disturbance, they lose sun hours, and possibly prey. One has to think how often one can disturb them before it's critical.


I absolutly agree with the second sentance! For the first: As I said they are used to be 'pray',too besides predetors.It's not only people that disturb them all the time..they also have natural predetors which disturb them! What are you saying..we should get rid off the Smooth snakes and birds that could take away some of that sun hours!? Living in a world with humans..we are just another NATURAL predetor to them..no matter that we separate 'natural' predetors from humans !
Ilian Velikov
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm
Hometown: Pravets
country: Bulgaria

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:48 am

...I'm continuing in a new post because something got wrong with the posting system and I couldn't finish!

...All I'm saying is that if all humans were 'praying' on herps only with a camera (no matter if catching or not) the animals could deal with it..and stress wouldn't be fatal. We've seen snakes with no tail tips,no eyes,scared bodies...lizards with regenerated (or even without) tail,turtles with crooked by scars shells....all results from their 'natural' predators and I'm pretty sure that caused them a lot of stress but they've survived it! Compared to a gentle handling for a few mminutes..this is much more stress I think (even if it happens rarer than human encounters).Don't forget animals don't make a difference between somethink that wants to eat them and a scientist!

Anyway,this is going far away from what this discussion shoul've been for! So,let's get back to the topic! I wonder what the author of the thread thinks on what is proper fieldherping! Jeroen,it's not fair starting the topic and not posting your own opinion! :) ;)
Ilian Velikov
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm
Hometown: Pravets
country: Bulgaria

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:41 pm

Thermoregulation is definitely an issue here, I think, but I'd rather say that overheating might occur (in the Mediterranean) than loss of hours of sun. I think hours of sun become more of a constraint when you move further north or up in the mountains, no?
Jeroen Speybroeck
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:18 am
Hometown: Merelbeke
country: Belgium

Re: What is proper field herping conduct?

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:25 pm

Michael,don't get me wrong! I am,by no means,looking for excuses to disturb the animals! All I'm saying is that catching animals for a while to photograph them doesn't stress them that much,so that it should be a major problem! Of course,as I said before,this doesn't count in the cases when it's a gravid female,or the animal has a special status or is somehow vulnerable! I definitly think that we should have in mind many things when we are deciding whether it's ok to catch the animal or not and we shouldn NOT do it every time and with every animal no matter of it's condition! And don't forget we are not discussing only your case,in your area! I think we are on the same page with you!
Ilian Velikov
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm
Hometown: Pravets
country: Bulgaria

Next

Return to FIELDHERPERS CAFE´

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests