Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite patient

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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:30 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:P.s. And what about the aposematic colours of coral snakes? Painful bites...? I don't think they are immediately painful, but the aposematic colours are a signal of defence... or what else?

Well, the proposed study is aimed at the reports (of humans, of course) of immediately painful bites by venomous snakes,
the pain being caused by envenomation, and presumably to drive the predator away (before it kills the snake.) That's why
I asked about the sense of the project as such, with a key proposition like that. My question is so terribly simple...
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:30 pm

I understand the aim of the research, but I think the question is not so simple.
Why should immediate pain save the life of a snake driving away the predator? Immediate pain could even do exactly the opposite: attract attention of the bite victim and induce the victim to kill the snake...
Another problem. Let's think about Bitis gabonica. I think its bite should be very painful, only considering the huge length of its fangs. And venom has for sure not a benefic effect... But if immediate pain is due to the long fangs, how should we consider this bite? Painful for the size of the fangs (which are so evoluted because of the need of injecting venom) or not painful because the pain is immediately procured by the fangs and not by the venom?

Human fear for snakes: I think it's a cultural one, not a genetic one, and many observations with children prove this.

Human fear for car driving accidents: it was only an example, I could have written fear of fire, or crevices or whatever else... :lol:
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Massimo Trentin » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:30 pm

I think we must consider the pain due to the fangs as this is the first pain you'll eventually experience...in this case I guess that a bite from a huge gabonica with two 4-5 cm nails would be slightly different from a coral snake one (or even an echis or a taipan or whatelse elapid).
If we switch the answer to early pain due to envenomation that's another question ;)
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Massimo Trentin » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:34 pm

Sorry Ruggero I didn't see your answer :oops: ...we had the same idea I see :D
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:34 pm

Thanks Massimo.

The example of the aposematic coloration in coral snakes was not so random...
Their bite is painless, at least initially.
If the aposematic coloration had the possibility of evolution, this clearly means that many animals, as I think, have the possibility to remember the effect of a venomous bite even if the bite has occurred some time earlier.

If, on the contrary, should be true the other hypotesis (animals are stupid and cannot connect venom effects with a previous bite) it would be difficult to explain the evolution of an aposematic color in a venomous snake whose bite is initially painless...
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:51 pm

Massimo Trentin wrote:If we switch the answer to early pain due to envenomation that's another question ;)

Sorry, but WE do not have to switch anything - the proposal/aim of the study was clearly stated.
And that's what troubles me... But I won't repeat it, I've done that quite a few times already...
Sapienti sat.
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:09 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:Human fear for snakes: I think it's a cultural one, not a genetic one, and many observations with children prove this.

Well, I'd like to see those "many observations with children" - but taking into account their AGE. The genetically built-in fears
activate when necessary, not before that. A normal child of H. sapiens in Pleistocene Africa clung to its mother till the third
year, and did not need be afraid of snakes - it was not its problem, the mother took care of that, and many other perils.

Ruggero Morimando wrote:Human fear for car driving accidents: it was only an example, I could have written fear of fire, or crevices or whatever else... :lol:

No, not "whatever else". Fear of fire or crevices is activated at the time of the separation from the mother. Those who didn't
respect that failed to pass on their "faulty" genome...
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Ruggero Morimando » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:12 am

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20151022 ... -come-from

This is one, found in 1 second of research...

And then we have our personal experience: when I used to keep snakes at home, I used to show them to children of all ages (excluding neonates): the children who did not received a "catholic hating/snakes" education, had no fear or disgust sentiment about snakes. And then we herpetophiles are the living proof that the fear for snakes is not an innate one.. like, for instance, disgust that all human beings genetically feel for decaying and rotting organic material...

You write: baby human beings in the past were kept by their mums and there were no need for the genetic fear for snakes to develop till a certain age.
But in this way, you must also admit, it is practically impossible to differentiate, in older Pleistocene children, what was a true genetic fear from what was experienced through and from their mothers during their early years of life...
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:46 pm

But in this way, you must also admit, it is practically impossible to differentiate, in older Pleistocene children, what was a true
genetic fear from what was experienced through and from their mothers during their early years of life...

Not "through and from their mothers" - Pleistocene children were not brought up by their mothers - they were "dumped" into
a "kindergarten" together with other children. They grew up among their peers. The mother had a new baby to produce and
suckle for the next three or so years.
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Re: Defensive Snake Venom? A survey of pain in snakebite pat

Postby Massimo Trentin » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:33 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:
But in this way, you must also admit, it is practically impossible to differentiate, in older Pleistocene children, what was a true
genetic fear from what was experienced through and from their mothers during their early years of life...

Not "through and from their mothers" - Pleistocene children were not brought up by their mothers - they were "dumped" into
a "kindergarten" together with other children. They grew up among their peers. The mother had a new baby to produce and
suckle for the next three or so years.

Mmm,,,so you're saying that moms of our ancestors used to leave their > 3 years or so babies to their destiny even if in sort of "Kindergarden" only because they would have other new sons to care for in meantime? (correct me if I'm wrong).
Many other lower mammals just don't do it ,elephans,chimps for example take care,as far as I know,of their sons even if they've had new babies in meantime,why should our ancestor have done it?
It's not a plus in terms of evolution,IMHO.
How could they have learned how to tell what to be scared for from what wasn't ?...they must have known it from someone .
This was true maybe also for snakes, as it was for food and/or many other things (i.e fire)
But I won't be annoying anymore with all these theories even if (to me) fascinating :D .
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