Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

For your reports/images, made outside Europe and the "Mediterranean" countries. Not to be too narrow minded and limited to our European/Mediterranean herps.

Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Ruggero M. » Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:41 pm

If I were forced to make a specific determination... http://www.biosch.hku.hk/ecology/hkrept ... sis_01.JPG :oops:

http://www.biosch.hku.hk/ecology/hkrept ... ensis.html

If you read the description: "head spatulate" :ugeek:
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Tim Leerschool » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:05 pm

Frédéric Seyffarth wrote:Perhaps Bungarus multicinctus ..?
I would take care like you, not easy to be sure sometimes... It looks like if he has a part of old skin on the head? ...the pattern is very close to multicinctus, with the white bands more aparted on the anterior portion of the body. The tail seems very triangular in shape and/or emaciated...it would be interesting to see the dorsal scale row.
Any advises from someone else?


The snake was indeed hit by something and had his eye bulging out of it's skull on the left side. To get a sort of nice pic I've got it to pose in the best position to don't show the eye.

As for the ID of the snake, here are some more pictures to help ID the snake.
The damage on the left side of its head is clearly visible in this picture
Image

Closest I could get regarding with my camera and safety
Image

I am curious to see if you are still leaning towards Bungaris.

With all the best,

Tim
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:35 pm

I will answer the question in this way.

What are the clues compatible both with Lycodon and Bungarus?

1) Colour and markings;
2) Size;
3) Triangular shape of the body section: typical for Bungarus, ok, but well compatible also with a starving Lycodon. And this snake is almost certainly starving because of a major head trauma. In addiction, signs of starvation are well evident towards the tail.

What are the clues typical only for a Lycodon?

1) Shape of the rostral: one could define it "spatulate" or however one wants, but this head shape is not present in Bungarus.
2) Absence of any evident large/trapezoidal mid-dorsal back scales: even if, I must admit, pictures are not the best possible... :roll:
3) Rather relatively "big" eye(s).

What are the clues typical only for Bungarus?

0) NONE

The challenge is won for the points by Lycodon... ;)
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:03 pm

Ruggero Morimando wrote:2) Absence of any evident large/trapezoidal mid-dorsal back scales: even if, I must admit, pictures are not the best possible... :roll

Tim, can you zoom and crop the mid-dorsal section in the last picture? Should be rather easy to tell then, no?
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:06 pm

I've enlarged all the three pictures that we have.

Please note carefully the places indicated by my arrows: the scales are all the same size and form, and all scales are normal dorsal scales.
In particular, the first picture is perfectly sharp, and the third picture is also important, because the scales are photographed partially by above.

scales.jpg
All the scales have the same size and form: pay particular attention to the first arrow left

scales2.jpg

scales3.jpg
Please note the scales, and compare them with every picture of Bungarus you find on the web...


In every Bungarus picture, even in "bad" ones, you can notice something "strange" in the form and size of the midline dorsal scales.

Here just two examples.
A true sosia, but the scales are different, and you can easily note this fact in many parts of the body, even if the picture itself is rather blurry.
http://csivc.csi.cuny.edu/Xin.Chen/file ... age016.jpg
A beautiful picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 43_krw.jpg
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Tim Leerschool » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:41 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Ruggero Morimando wrote:2) Absence of any evident large/trapezoidal mid-dorsal back scales: even if, I must admit, pictures are not the best possible... :roll

Tim, can you zoom and crop the mid-dorsal section in the last picture? Should be rather easy to tell then, no?


As requested:
Image

Still, though I do see some similarity I am doubtful of the larger mid-dorsal back scales. I am curious to see what you guys think.

With all the best,

Tim
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Ruggero M. » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:34 pm

big.jpg


With your last picture... :cry: ...I've lost my friendly battle.
The best thing were to have such a good picture, but from above, not from a side: nevertheless, with your last picture (especially with the part of the body on the background) I would say you have found a young, starving, and with crushed head.... Bungarus multicinctus! :mrgreen:
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Frédéric Seyffarth » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:18 pm

+1
In all the pictures i find that the shape of the body is really close to Bungarus by its regularity. Even a snake in poor physical condition wouldn't have this triangular shape so regular in all the lenght of his body.
My english isn't enough good for a complete explanation like Ruggero did, so i want to say "hat in hand".
:D
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Tim Leerschool » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:48 pm

I found a better picture from a higher angle.

Image

I do see bungaris features in this picture (if they were not already clear ;) ). I will send the photos to someone I know that has everyday experience with these snakes.

Thank you!

Kind regards,

Tim
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Re: Asia travels - Central & South China and Japan

Postby Ruggero M. » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:10 pm

Thanks, Tim. But I think there is no doubt about your snake at this point.

super.jpg
Big scales are easily seen in this picture


The spirit/lesson of this "tricky" determination is:

1) Never trust too much yourself or other people (I trusted too much myself and your first determination as Lycodon)

2) Never trust too much with a "possibly" lethal snake, until you find a 100% sure determination character. If I remember well, a well known herpetologist died in Asia just by a Bungarus bite, he thought to be a harmless wolf snake!

:roll:

P.S. I will also quote 100% the statement of Frédéric

Frédéric Seyffarth wrote:+1
In all the pictures i find that the shape of the body is really close to Bungarus by its regularity. Even a snake in poor physical condition wouldn't have this triangular shape so regular in all the lenght of his body.
:D


The problem fur us europeans while snake-herping in Asia is that we, in Europe, can distinguish a venomous snake from a harmless snake at once by its "look": vipers have a "bad look" with "bad eyes" and short, plump and rough bodies.
In Asia, a small Bungarus could look, for us, like the most harmless snake in the world... :?
Now that a determination is finally made, all is very simple and even impossible to miss: the triangular section of the body, the black and white design, the big black head (containing big venom glands!) with whitish labials, the white semilunar blotches at the neck... and a tiny, pretty, harmless snake becomes at once and clearly a potentially lethal pet! :ugeek:
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