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Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:21 am
by Guy Haimovitch
As you guys pointed out, the law is not perfect in this case.
A herper gently handling a snake might get caught and fined, while a person killing a snake in his backyard will not.

This is due to several reasons:
1. There are no rangers hanging out in people's back yards (that would be kind of creepy), so there is no one to catch you.
2. A person killing a snake in his back yard is doing it out of ignorance and (un-justified) fear for his and his family lives.
3. The wild (state "owned") is not a back yard (private property)
4. A herper is actively and knowingly going out to the wild to search for protected wild-life, he knows what he is doing.
5. A person killing a snake in his backyard is "dragged into" a situation he did not ask to be in.

I invest A LOT of energy in educating people in Israel about the benefits of having snakes around, how to identify the dangerous ones and the legal status of all vertebrates in Israel (all are protected aside from pests), but enforcement resources are limited and the legal departments are not keen on prosecuting ignorant people who felt they were acting in self-defence inside their private property.

As I said, its not perfect, but I rather have some law than none at all like some of our neighboring countries were traders run amok and destroy whole populations of endangered animals for pure greed.

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:43 am
by Ilian Velikov
Guy Haimovitch wrote:As I said, its not perfect, but I rather have some law than none at all

Of course, that's true.

Guy Haimovitch wrote: like some of our neighboring countries were traders run amok and destroy whole populations of endangered animals for pure greed.


Some of you neighboring countries destroy whole populations of people let alone animals. In such countries it is next to impossible to talk about protecting wildlife (although there are some efforts, of course). It is a well known paradox - the better the quality of life of people the more likely they are to protect their wildlife, but for life to be good for people it means wealthy country which in turn means huge scale development and loss of habitat and wildlife. In other words wealthy Western countries have better laws for protecting wildlife but less wildlife and wild places left to protect. On the other hand the underdeveloped countries have been underdeveloped for centuries and they've never had laws protecting wildlife, yet wildlife has managed to survive (in greater variety) despite all the lawless poaching. So loss of habitat might be a bigger problem in the long term than those "greedy traders". So what's better? What's the solution? It's a tricky question. Maybe laws protecting the habitat and not allowing extensive development/destruction of habitats (which we can actually control) would be better in the long term than laws against handling or even killing animals (which are almost redundant because they can't be properly implemented for the aforementioned reasons).

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:48 am
by Ruggero Morimando
Thanks for your reply, Guy.
We are all on the same side, I know, but I want to make here only some additional thoughts, not only for Israel but for my Country too.

You make a sharp distinction between herpers in the open fields and common people in their own backyards.
First thing, backyards are sometimes private properties, sometimes not, but if a wild animal arrives in a private property, this does not mean the animal is a private property too.

Second more important thing.
The distinction "herpers in the wild to take pictures" and "laymen in their own garden who kill for fear" is not a valid one.
In my experience people kill snakes even in the woods and in the fields, when they met them: for ignorance, fear and disgust, sure, but (at least in Italy) they kill snakes every time the occasion is given, near houses or very far from houses. Is then ignorance and fear a justification, while passion and knowledge of the herpers a guilt?
I hope not: law actually admits no ignorance... :roll:

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:03 am
by Guy Haimovitch
You're both right and I agree with you 100%, I'm just describing reality, not what I think should happen.

I think that gentle herping should be allowed and even encouraged in order to reduce public fear, increase field data collection, etc.

I think that education of everyday people (not herpers) should increase. There are a few efforts being done in Israel, for example: Quick ID sites (using a wizard or uploading an image), FB groups, car stickers ("Dont kill snakes!"), etc.

I don't think we'll ever be able to punish who kill a snake in their backyard, but in Public places it should happen for sure.

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:58 pm
by Berislav Horvatic
Guy Haimovitch wrote:You're both right and I agree with you 100%, I'm just describing reality, not what I think should happen.
I think that gentle herping should be allowed and even encouraged in order to reduce public fear,
increase field data.

MZ_0383_RED.jpg

Gentle enough? Or deserving a 200 EU fine for breaking the law?
(BTW, I've also been increasing field data and reducing public fear for years.
In both cases without any official permission from the state, so...)

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:08 pm
by Guy Haimovitch
Seems gentle enough :lol:

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:40 pm
by Ilian Velikov
Berislav Horvatic wrote:Gentle enough? Or deserving a 200 EU fine for breaking the law?


Yes, just don't kiss her on the mouth :lol:

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:54 pm
by Ruggero Morimando
You are joking Ilian, but I,ve seen a guy kissing really an aspisviper just captured on its body with free head. There is no limit to madness, and I hope that this guy, with age, will never repeat those kind of kissing... :shock:

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:17 pm
by Ilian Velikov
Ruggero Morimando wrote:You are joking Ilian, but I,ve seen a guy kissing really an aspisviper just captured on its body with free head. There is no limit to madness, and I hope that this guy, with age, will never repeat those kind of kissing...


I'm not surprised at all. Unfortunately a lot of supposedly "herp enthusiasts" are just attention seekers trying to be "macho". People's stupidity has no boundaries (just to clarify - I'm sure Berislav is not one of those people, that's why I was joking with him). Recently there was a case in Australia where two women(one of them local) went swimming at night in a creek where they do crocodile spotting tours (which was clearly stated on signs all over the place). Can you imagine? And surprise, surprise, one of them got killed by a crocodile. I don't know what happened this time but the worst thing in such cases is that they would often kill the "man-eating" crocodile after that...something I could never understand.

Sorry for the off-topic stuff but one thing let to another...

Re: Israel - 21st of April to 25th of April 2016

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:16 pm
by Berislav Horvatic
Ilian Velikov wrote:
Berislav Horvatic wrote:Gentle enough? Or deserving a 200 EU fine for breaking the law?

Yes, just don't kiss her on the mouth :lol:

First of all, it was a MALE, a HE, not a SHE, and being a (heterosexual) male myself, I just don't do it.
Not even with Homo sapiens.

Once, in a desperate attempt to finally prove the locals that Telescopus fallax is NOT an "adder",
I kissed it on the crown of its head, with its head free. But it WAS a fallax, not a viper or a cobra.
(Only, as it was a subadult, nowadays I might be accused of paedophilia... But back then, in 2005,
it was not yet such a burning issue as it now seems to be...)