disturbing and poaching

That´s the place to discuss on sytematics, distribution, etc.

Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon May 14, 2012 4:25 pm

A sad example: The newly built highway Zagreb - Sisak has cut right through
the vast habitat of V. berus bosniensis, one of the best we know of, and at the
critical moment we could have done nothing at all about it. We could not have
asked even for the tunnels for snakes, so the population has been split in two,
in addition to all those animals having been killed during the construction...
We just came too late - at the critical moment we had no data, just our personal
impressions and estimates, and those don't count.
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Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Mon May 14, 2012 4:29 pm

Michael Glass wrote:disturbed too frequently and some are poached.


Disturbance in more NW European sites (which often host small and isolated populations) is most likely much more severe.

Somewhat related are these papers ...
Amo, L.; López, P.; Martín, J. 2006 Nature-based tourism as a form of predation risk affects body condition and health state of Podarcis muralis lizards Biological Conservation 131: 402-409
Rodríguez-Prieto, I.; Fernández-Juricic, E. 2005 Effects of direct human disturbance on the endemic Iberian frog Rana iberica at individual and population levels Biological Conservation 123: 1–9 (PDF-1548 in Mario's DB)
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Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Mon May 14, 2012 4:30 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:A sad example: The newly built highway Zagreb - Sisak has cut right through
the vast habitat of V. berus bosniensis, one of the best we know of, and at the
critical moment we could have done nothing at all about it. We could not have
asked even for the tunnels for snakes, so the population has been split in two,
in addition to all those animals having been killed during the construction...
We just came too late - at the critical moment we had no data, just our personal
impressions and estimates, and those don't count.


Forgive me my pessimism, but would the highway trajectory have been altered if you had?
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Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Mario Schweiger » Mon May 14, 2012 4:35 pm

Milos island:
During the 70ies and 80ies many people came there to collect vipers (and other herps).
Some hundreds of them left the island every year.
And you could get them at many farmers, collected every one they could get.
They kept them in 200 litres oil barrels, waiting for the clients. 80 to 90% died in these barrels, I have seen it.
But the vipers have been everywhere, also in this time - and although I dont know the exact numbers of today, I´m nearly sure, todays population is not really bigger than in those days.

In general:
A habitat, a real or fictive island, can hold a maximum number of individuals.
Lets say this number x = 90 animals.
If one or some collectors take 10 individuals away, youngsters and subadults (whatever this is) have a much better chance to get mature and the number will be 90 again.

May opinion is, you may do heavily effects by collecting/hunting of elefants, rhinos, and with less impact to tortoises, but never to Squamates, if the environment = habitat is in good condition.
One example more:
If every Leopard snake lover, takes everyone he sees from the island Krk, this will have no effect to the population.
During 15 years now, I have seen 8 live ones and 3 road killed across the whole island.
But the island population must consist of some hundreds, or better thousends of individuals, otherwise they would get extinct by not finding someone to mate.

Mario
Mario (Admin)

Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
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Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Daniel Bohle » Mon May 14, 2012 4:57 pm

There are two possibilities if we discovered a new population:

Keep it secret
+ no danger of poachers, fototourism
- possible habitat destruction take place

Reports it to the authorities
+ potential habitat destruction can be prevented - or not (unfortunately reality)
- information can leak (unfortunately reality as well)

So we have to decide whats less worse ;-D
For mountain ursinii the secret way may be the best, for suburban areas most probably not.
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Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue May 15, 2012 8:10 am

Mario Schweiger wrote:Milos island:
During the 70ies and 80ies many people came there to collect vipers (and other herps).
Some hundreds of them left the island every year.
And you could get them at many farmers, collected every one they could get.
They kept them in 200 litres oil barrels, waiting for the clients. 80 to 90% died in these barrels, I have seen it.
But the vipers have been everywhere, also in this time - and although I dont know the exact numbers of today, I´m nearly sure, todays population is not really bigger than in those days.

In general:
A habitat, a real or fictive island, can hold a maximum number of individuals.
Lets say this number x = 90 animals.
If one or some collectors take 10 individuals away, youngsters and subadults (whatever this is) have a much better chance to get mature and the number will be 90 again.

May opinion is, you may do heavily effects by collecting/hunting of elefants, rhinos, and with less impact to tortoises, but never to Squamates, if the environment = habitat is in good condition.
One example more:
If every Leopard snake lover, takes everyone he sees from the island Krk, this will have no effect to the population.
During 15 years now, I have seen 8 live ones and 3 road killed across the whole island.
But the island population must consist of some hundreds, or better thousends of individuals, otherwise they would get extinct by not finding someone to mate.


You're probably largely right. Let's not forget about genetic erosion in small and isolated populations, though.
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Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Ilian Velikov » Tue May 15, 2012 10:13 am

For me there's no single solution that applies for every location. Some sites should be kept a secret and some not, depending on the circumstances.
However, it seems to me that the danger of "photo tourism" is often exagerated and that most scientists somehow see the amatures with cameras as worse people than themselves.
Just because you went to a certain place to take only photos rather than e.g. DNA for some big research project doesn't make your intentions towards the animals and their habitat worse.
Also, often (if done the right way) taking photos disturbs the animals far less than putting things up their cloaca ;) All I'm saying is that "photo-tourism" can be as beneficial to
protecting a certain species/habitat as a scientific research and should not be immediately regarded as a bad thing (especially in some NW countries where the isolated populations of reptiles/amphibians are surrounded by
people/cities anyway). I don't see a reason for panic if your local spot is visited by some amture nature lovers that just take photos! Besides,most of the people on the forum are often travelling around Europe (and the World)
just as photo-tourists, "hunting" and photographing animals at someone else's local spot (disturbing them in the process).
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Re: Herptrip Montenegro-Croatia-Slovenia 2012

Postby Ilian Velikov » Tue May 15, 2012 11:31 am

Since I assume you are very much familiar with the sun hours that are required my males in spring and females for giving birth - how can you state that this does not affect the population?


First, I didn't say it doesn't affect them at all, but in the Uk for example most adder sites are very close/within human populated areas, with walkers, dogs, nature lovers, nature haters, farmers etc....and I still haven't heard of a case where adders are unable to reproduce because of human presence! Second, I said that photographing them should be done in the right way, which doesn't mean getting too close. Third, I don't know why you think that they are less disturbed when you photograph them than when me (or another "nature lover") if I were to come for a walk at your spot...or maybe you have some God-like powers? On top of that, I presume you are there "disturbing" them more often than your average walker! Also, keep in mind that next time you go to Greece, or Bulgaria, or anywhere.... for some herping you are going to be that "fool" that has come at some other guy's spot to photograph the animals..and maybe gets too close sometimes! And just because it's "in the middle of nowhere" doesn't mean that it's safer to disturb them because that "nowhere" could be the only place a certain species is found in the country (or the whole of Europe).

And finally, I (and many other people) feel like you, when you have some spot that you call "yours" and it's kind of a secret and all of a sudden it's not anymore and other people visit it as well. I don't like this too, but if you are an egoist just admit it, don't make excuses with the animals and don't put labels on people that are doing pretty much the same as you do at that spot!
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Re: disturbing and poaching

Postby Ilian Velikov » Tue May 15, 2012 1:09 pm

But hey, it seems you have some serious issue with me.....you better back your statements up or just STFU


Wow, eeeeasy.... no need to get offensive. I don't have any issue, let alone serious, with you, I was just trying to be more optimistic and say that probably some of the people that are visiting "your" spot are acting properly and have a nice attitude towards the animals and that you don't need to be a scientist to enjoy or protect nature! Besides, photo tourism has proven to be a good tool for conservation IF its done right!

In a nutshell, it's just ridiculous and hypocritic to be against people going out photographing and/or catching these animals and at the same time what you are doing is....photographing and/or catching these animals!

At the end of the day you have to face the truth that no matter where, cities or in the middle of nowhere, we all go out there catch snakes and lizards, take photos and basiclly disturb those animals in one way or another. Animals don't give a shit who are you and what's your background, they just see us as dangerous humans, they are always affraid, we are the Devil for all living things! And you can tell me to STFU as much as you want but if you want to ease the stress on the animals, there are two things you can do - 1) educate people on how to act around them (which I'm glad you do) rather than driving them away and turning them down by calling them fools, or 2) get out of there yourself, it will be one person less visiting the spot!
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Re: disturbing and poaching

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue May 15, 2012 1:30 pm

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