disturbing and poaching

[Berislav Horvatic]

It was not an exact place but ok, it's done

I know, but too easy for anyone who knows the habitat of the species and can play with GE etc.
In any case, thanks for removing it. Didn't mean to be bossy (for once)

The ursinii site was renamed to "Alpes dinariques à l'est de Gracac", but the name
of the nearest village still remains in the captions of pictures before and after...
Only an idiot would have a problem to solve the remaining puzzle... if he/she was
intent on doing so. Not that I think it's so terribly important, but if Jeroen feels the
responsibility, as he does, so should I.

In any case, congratulations to the team. I do envy you.

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Not that I think it's so terribly important.

I'm not sure if I understand you, Bero, but the version of the report that I commented on mentioned a village only 3km away from the site and straight at the foot of the relevant hill. Personally, I don't like to see that, that's all. It surprises me somehow that you wouldn't mind about that...?

[Berislav Horvatic]

I'm not sure if I understand you, Bero, but the version of the report that I commented on mentioned a village only 3km away from the site and straight at the foot of the relevant hill. Personally, I don't like to see that, that's all. It surprises me somehow that you wouldn't mind about that...?

My point was that the report STILL mentions the name of the village, in the captions of the pictures
before and after ursinii (AFTER the corrections you asked for have been made), so either one should
delete that as well, or do nothing at all. You know I like things to be done thoroughly... call me
"pedantic" if you like, but in a case like this it's the only thing that makes any sense - either you hide
it, or you don't. As it stands now, with this half-solution, any fool could "crack" it.
Regarding my seeming "resignation", or "not minding about that", I assure you that I do mind, but I'm
just becoming a little bit tired "of all that"... Can't wait for the whole thing to be published, so that it
would become both the common knowledge and common responsibility. (Not that I really believe much
in "common responsibility", but it would - formally, at least - exonerate ME, YOU & al. from this tedious
task...)
Anyhow, thanks for caring. Wish the others were so considerate (P.-Y. in particular, since I've shown
him the place myself, and he knows as well as you do just how vulnerable it is.)

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Oh, OK, now I see... , with the butterfly and the agilis etc.
I'm afraid I have to agree, PY.

Well, we've discussed this before, in part, I guess. Details add up to the value of a report to the reader, but places/populations do deteriorate due to too much visitors, not to mention collectors. In some cases, it might 'only' be restricted to sites that we would like to revisit personally ourselves, likely not causing any population-level trouble. However, worse cases exist. I would hope that it would be sufficiently clear to all that this species (and not in the least this population) is on top of the vulnerable European herpetofauna list.

As tedious as it may be, -and I agree it is, Bero- I would hope we would never have to rely on that "common responsibility" in such sensitive cases.
I hope the site details will never be published.

[Mario Schweiger]

Michael,

also many herpers are going tere every year, and for sure some poachers too, I think even a moderate collecting will not have a big effect to this population.
People are only able, to check a maximum of 10 to 15% of the whole habitat, so 80 - 90% of the population live in peace.
And collecting there started after the picture of the red individual on Brunos book, and, if you be there at the right date and at the right time, you may observe 2 or e dozens within a half day.
If any population is so down (mostly be habitat destructure), a moderate collecting will effect it, I think its to late for the population anyway!
This should be no invitation for collecting!

Mario

[Mario Schweiger]

but I would assume that the common herp poacher that is after one pair will have a hard time there.

Not at the right spot!
Also 5 - 6 within 1 hour or so
But who is telling this places?

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

If any population is so down (mostly be habitat destructure), a moderate collecting will effect it, I think its to late for the population anyway!
This should be no invitation for collecting!

Yet, imho, it is. Yes, on a population level, collecting is far less detrimental than habitat loss, but for me that doesn't mean collecting is "sort of OK" in this (or any) case.

I think I am with Michael, although I would assess the sensitivity of (this) ursinii (population) much higher than that of this ammodytes Mekka. Yet, multiply "a little bit doesn't hurt" by the number of viper keepers over time vs. generation time of the species...

Also, a lot of the place may be hard to access, but if I was a hardcore collector, I'd surely wouldn't mind a bit of hostile vegetation. Is it not possible you might underestimate the importance of human-accessible sections as basking sites, Mario?

All of this is easily solved by giving away nothing but very rough site descriptions. And not collecting yourself

[Mario Schweiger]

I think, especially with ammodytes, collecting is over estimated.
I´m breeding now these island vipers in 2nd and 3rd generation, and selected colors. Nearly nobody wants them anymore, not even as gift.
Stopped breeding in 2011

Mario

[Berislav Horvatic]

I hope the site details will never be published.

Well, with that you run into a certain problem - you can not obtain official (legal) protection
for a locality if you neither publish it, nor name it in your request... It would look like this:

Dear Sirs,
we would like you to place Mountain X (no name supplied - for security reasons!)
under such-and-such protection, since it's swarming with the rare and endangered
species Vipera ursinii, as can be testified by ourselves and many friends of ours.
(No, no other proof available, nothing published - for security reasons!) &c.

What should any state authority in any country do with an application like that?

I know that our authorities require published references and nothing less than that.

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

you can not obtain official (legal) protection for a locality if you neither publish it, nor name it in your request

I see...

Should have thought of that, since not new to me. In this particular case, I'd prefer not to publish, because once the details are out there, you can never turn back the clock and people/poachers wíll come and authorities will not (be able to) do much about it. In parallel, Greek herpetologists have been doing research on Milos vipers for years now, deliberately publishing nothing exactly because of this. Terrible but true...