disturbing and poaching

[Mario Schweiger]

+1

[Rok Grzelj]

Animals don't give a shit who are you and what's your background, they just see us as dangerous humans, they are always affraid, we are the Devil for all living things!

I have to agree here....

[Mario Schweiger]

I grabbed now some papers, dealing with (eco)tourist and herps.

Hines, K.N. (2011): EFFECTS OF ECOTOURISM ON ENDANGERED NORTHERN BAHAMIAN ROCK IGUANAS (CYCLURA CYCHLURA) - PDF

Rodríguez-Prieto, I. et al. (2010): Habituation to low-risk predators improves body condition in lizards - PDF

Rodriguez-Prieto, I. & E. Fernandez-Juricic (2005): Effects of direct human disturbance on the endemic Iberian frog Rana iberica at individual and population levels PDF

The last: I´m woundering how many hours a group of fieldherpers have to stay, until each of them gets a picture of this frog (5 visitors an hour maximum)

Mario

[Ilian Velikov]

Are you seriously saying that every person that goes out photographing acts the same?

Definitely not! I never said that..I said that not ALL of them act badly and that not every guy with a camera that is less knowledgable about snakes than you, should be denied access to them. Besides, not knowing much about the snakes does not neccesarily means that you are goign to be destructive, you just need to have respect for the animals and their environment (I'm not saying its better not to know stuff about them, but that it's not vital). For example I know a lot about herps but I don't know much about..let's say mammals. Does that mean that I should never approach them and try to take photos of them...or that I'm going to destroy them if I do?

I have absolutely no clue why you don't get the difference. Maybe it's your personal excuse that we are all equally bad. But we are not. We can carefully decide how often we disturb, to which extend we disturb, and at which point disturbance is too frequent.

I certainly don't use it as an excuse, because I don't have anything to be excused for, since I too try my best NOT to disturb animals when I observe/photograph them; rarely catch them, unless there's no other way (most often snakes e.g. colubrids); and never disturb/catch them if they are prgnant or feeding, etc. You are right that we can carefully decide what to do, but do you really think that only scientists or very knowledgable people make the right decision?...Some time ago I met a couple at an adder spot which were just generally enjoying all wildlife and didn't know much about vipers. Yet, they were walking only on the paths, not stepping over vegetation and watching the adders from some distance through binoculars.

But if I am not there anymore, who will educate the fools? You - by saying we are all doing harm so let's have everyone doing harm... Great solution. Try to get into protecting heavily frequented sites and maybe you will understand the difference between "in the middle of nowhere" and this kind of spots.

You are getting this too personal, and talking only about your spot while I was more general. I never said we should all do harm, but don't think that you, with your knowledge and love of snakes disturb them less while observing them (even though carefully) than someone that doesn't know too much but just think they are beautiful (yet they are still carefull)! Again, snakes don't make a difference! Of course, I'm not saying you should go there evey day!Beside, I try to educate people about herps nomatter where I am..not only at my local spot.

As for "this kind of spots" and "in the middle of nowhere"...if you ask me "in the middle of nowhere" are the most precious sites which are trully wild and are the best environment for those animals and is where they really belong. So if you ask me where people should go to see them on a regular basis it would be spots like yours (or mine) where they are already surrounded by people and dogs anyway, like it or not! In other words in terms of animal's well-being I would leave the ones in the trully wild place alone, so they can stay that way, and encourage people going to see them in city parks!

And finally, you say that I should back up my words but you still have to provide evidance that the presence of people at your spot is affecting the breeding of the adders there!

[Pierre-Yves Vaucher]

Pfffffffffff.....
I'm asking now: what I'm ? Who I'm ???? eco tourist ? photo tourist ? Of course I take some snakes and others animals with hands (only) to take some pictures. If I can release some nice pictures with my 50-200mm I will do but it's rarely possible.

[Peter Oefinger]

Hi all,
excuse me to bring in my opinion in this interesting topic...
1. I think for the individual animal it is NOT ok to be disturbed - that's the reason why I always feel a little bit guilty when herping
2. The effect for the population depends on the area: in Central Europe herps often are restricted to small relict areas (see the Nuremberg adder example) - photographing there could be a problem... In mountain and mediterranean regions 99% of the areas are inaccessible for humans (rocks and scrub). In worst case, photographers will destroy populations at good herping spots (as herpers are lazy these spots are situated in a maximum distance of 50 meters from the next road ). Being ennoyed too much the animals will move to places without photographers - the next rock or gorge. For the herper it will look as the whole population has been extinct...
So, in the end it depends on the size of the suitable habitat?

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

orchids

Hmmm... Aren't herpers supposed to trample on those things?

Orchid guys

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orchid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_boy

Even women love orchids...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ballm%C3%A4dchen.jpg

[Mario Schweiger]

Even women love orchids...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ballm%C3%A4dchen.jpg

nothing to add

Mario

[Peter Oefinger]

Aren't herpers supposed to trample on those things?

Herpers trample on orchids, orchid guys trample on herps. I like both - so I trample on everything

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

orchid guys trample on herps

!!! LAME JOKE ALERT !!!

Don't you mean "orchid guys trample on herpes"?