A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

That´s the place to discuss on sytematics, distribution, etc.

Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:33 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:On the other hand, in a "no killing allowed" situation the "traitors" who break this rule would
prosper immensely and would soon become the majority - which brings us back to square one.
An evolutionarily stable situation would be something in between - no routine killing of rivals,
with some exceptions "allowed".

My thoughts exactly, well put!
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:31 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:Vipers bite during combats under certain circumstances. At least in terrariums. Mostly nothing happens, except a huge swolen head (they cant even close their mouth) or part of the body, where getting bitten - for some hours.


But... as long as no one has seen this in the field (at least such a swolen head), how can you know this is natural behaviour? I'm sure, Mario, you are aware of that, but it needs mentioning nevertheless. Impossible to assess its significance, but interesting in terms of viper's venom metabolisation.
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Sandra Panienka » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:32 pm

Awesome pictures!!! And a great and very interesting discussion. :)
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Mario Schweiger » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:40 am

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:But... as long as no one has seen this in the field (at least such a swolen head), how can you know this is natural behaviour? I'm sure, Mario, you are aware of that, but it needs mentioning nevertheless. Impossible to assess its significance, but interesting in terms of viper's venom metabolisation.


For sure, these bites (escalated combat) may be terrarium artifacts.
The same opinion has Thomas Kölpin: "No occurrence of escalated combats of snakes in nature has been described until now indicating that escalated combats may be an artifact of captivity."
Full paper here.

This text I´ve found on the net - unfortunately no link saved: "Most males battling for a female will not bite each other and instead wrestle to try to force their rival’s head to the ground. The battle is more like a dance; combatants may “stand” erect parallel to each other, or twine around each other like a rope. A few snakes do actually bite each other. Sometimes a female initiates the first stage of combat and wrestles with the male. She will reject the suitor if he does not respond forcefully."

On the other hand: The chance to see such an escalated combat - or just the swolen head after a bite - is something like zero.
From my observation, the swelling leasts from 3 to 12 hours and the "victim" is hiding during this time.
So it might be more easy to find a two-headed albino Vipera ammodytes, with a straight orange dorsal line ;)

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Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:26 pm

This text I´ve found on the net - unfortunately no link saved:

Here's the link to the full text:

http://www.szgdocent.org/resource/rr/c-love.htm
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Liam Russell » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:39 am

In Arnold it says that some male whip snakes (caspius in particular, but maybe this would apply to other species?) grasp the neck of the female during mating.

Are these snakes both definitely male? Maybe they are a little confused?
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:48 am

Are these snakes both definitely male? Maybe they are a little confused?


You have a point Liam. Looking at the photos now it doesn't seem imposibble.

As for the biting in male to male combats, I read that Malpolon males (unlike other snakes) start the fight by actually biting each other and if niether backs down they would then start pushing (G.Kreiner, 'Snakes Of Europe').
So, biting might not be that uncommon in large colubrid fights.

A Dolichophis that I cought last year was so frustrated that it was actually bitting eveything that was near its mouth including itself. A part of its body would touch its mouth while I was holding it, and it would bite itself and even hold on for a few seconds before it realise what's going on.
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