A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:
Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:But why wouldn't venomous snakes bite each other? Wouldn't that be a very easy way to get rid
of competitors? Or would they both bite each other and it all ends in misery?

The idea of a male-to-male combat is to prove higher fitness without the risk of getting killed or
maimed. If lethal veapons were "allowed", even the fittest male in a population would be dead
after a few fights. Nobody wants that, so they don't do it.


:shock:
So you don't know of any example in the animal world where 1 of the competitors looses (or can loose) his life in the battle?
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:33 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:So you don't know of any example in the animal world where 1 of the competitors looses (or can loose) his life in the battle?

On a regular basis, no. It can happen, but not as a rule.
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:39 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:
Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:So you don't know of any example in the animal world where 1 of the competitors looses (or can loose) his life in the battle?

On a regular basis, no. It can happen, but not as a rule.


Should I give you a hint ?
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:43 pm

But why wouldn't venomous snakes bite each other? Wouldn't that be a very easy way to get rid of competitors? Or would they both bite each other and it all ends in misery?


I know this issue is still not clear but most likely some (if not all) venomous snakes are immune to their own venom (makes sense since they do ingest it) and bitting each other in a battle would simply be a waste of precious venom (and teeth proabbly). Generally venomous snakes try to save their venom as much as they can even when they are attacked by a predator, and would bite only if there's no other way out of it, so it seems plausible that they would save it in battles with each other if they are really immune.
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Francesco Tri » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:43 pm

If viperidi bite their head and teeth reach the brain, they normally die
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Gabriel Martínez » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:29 pm

Impressive photos!
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:10 am

Let me rephrase - I often wondered if killing one's male competitor is not the most certain strategy to ensure that he doesn't get a shot at having offspring, while your own chances increase. Sounds morbid, I know, but I wonder how this is balanced in an evolutionary context vs. the loss of that defeated one's life. Neverrrrrmind...
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Mario Schweiger » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:59 am

Vipers bite during combats under certain circumstances. At least in terrariums.
Mostly nothing happens, except a huge swolen head (they cant even close their mouth) or part of the body, where getting bitten - for some hours.
So they are not imun against their own venom, although they tolerate much higher doses.
If a teeth reaches the brain via the fontanella or the medulla between two vertebrae, they die within seconds sometimes. Just two or three turnarounds and finish.
I have this observed 3 times now within 40 years of ammodytes keeping, although I see bites (or their results) several times a year.

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Please visit also my personal Herp-site vipersgarden.at
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:51 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:I often wondered if killing one's male competitor is not the most certain strategy to ensure that he
doesn't get a shot at having offspring, while your own chances increase. Sounds morbid, I know,
but I wonder how this is balanced in an evolutionary context vs. the loss of that defeated one's life.

If killing one's male competitor were the primary & routine strategy, the Earth would be strewn
with male corpses and little else, within weeks. The risk would be far too high for everybody,
including the fittest males in a population - even they would be dead after a few fights. For those
who do survive the chances for mating would increase, but the chances to SURVIVE AT ALL
would decrease dramatically for everybody. And survival comes before reproduction - dead
animals do not reproduce. So, evolution would penalize a suicidal strategy like that.
On the other hand, in a "no killing allowed" situation the "traitors" who break this rule would
prosper immensely and would soon become the majority - which brings us back to square one.
An evolutionarily stable situation would be something in between - no routine killing of rivals,
with some exceptions "allowed".
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Ilian Velikov » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:36 pm

Mostly nothing happens, except a huge swolen head (they cant even close their mouth) or part of the body, where getting bitten - for some hours.
So they are not imun against their own venom, although they tolerate much higher doses.
I have this observed 3 times now within 40 years of ammodytes keeping, although I see bites (or their results) several times a year.


Thanks for that! It's good to know.

If a teeth reaches the brain via the fontanella or the medulla between two vertebrae, they die within seconds sometimes. Just two or three turnarounds and finish.


Is it clear if that's due to the envenomation or just the physical contact? Practiclly they would die even if you stick a non-venomous pin in their brain.


An evolutionarily stable situation would be something in between - no routine killing of rivals,with some exceptions "allowed".


Which is basiclly the current situation with most species...and it seems to work.
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