A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

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A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:57 pm

The male to male combat in snakes is usually described as "ritualised", with the two males just wrestling
in accordance with some given rules of the game, without ever trying to really harm each other. No teeth
allowed...
However, sometimes it may get a little bit rougher than that...
The following photos were taken by the ornithologist Andrej Radalj from Rijeka on the island of Krk (Croatia)
on the 10th of June 2012.

AR_0689_RED.jpg

AR_0700_RED.jpg

AR_0705_RED.jpg

AR_0731_RED.jpg

The two Hierophis viridiflavus carbonarius males were biting each other quite fiercely, "like mad dogs",
says Andrej. Nevertheless, I wouldn't regard this as an instance of a so called "escalated combat", in
which the participants try to harm or even kill the rival. I would rather ascribe it to the well-known
specific temperament of the particular (sub)species.
Any other opinions or, possibly, experiences?
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Francesco Tri » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:02 pm

When two Ierophys viridiflavus adult males of the same size come together they became a hormonal storm: they lose their inhibitions and often do not notice even the men!

  But we must not forget that this species is ofidiofaga and I have often seen cases of cannibalism among specimens of different sizes
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:36 pm

I asked Andrej how the combat finally ended, and the answer is rather surprising.
He says that one of the males was repeatedly trying to withdraw from the battle,
but the other one just would not let him go. After some ten minutes of fierce struggling
it finally managed to free itself from the grip of its opponent and then they both
disappeared in the undergowth.

AR_0723_RED.jpg

AR_0746_RED.jpg

That doesn't look like anything "ritualistic", even less as a "fair" fight for the right
to mate, in which the opponents normally try to avoid injuries.
On the other hand, the rivals were rather on a par, so in a case like that one should
not expect an attempt of cannibalism either...
So, as Francesco has put it so vividly, they just became "a hormonal storm"...?
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Stéphane Aubry » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:10 pm

Thank you very much for sharing these excellent and very interesting pics !

With Bastien Comment, his father and one of my son, we were lucky enough to assist at a such impressive scene. That was clearly more ritualistic than dramatic...

143626374.AxwaNZCh.IMG_5823.jpg


more pics on http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/hierophis_viridiflavus_280512
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Bobby Bok » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:39 pm

Simply stunning, would love to observe that myself one day.
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Andre Schmid » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:53 am

Awesome, thanks for sharing !
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Jürgen Gebhart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:37 am

Great Documentation!!
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:45 pm

I "googled" this thing, though not very thoroughly & systematically, and here's what I found:
Venomous snakes are regularly claimed to refrain from (mis)using their lethal weaponry in
male-to-male combat, which is only to be expected.
As for the nonvenomous ones, they do bite in encounters like that, much more than would
be expected (?) in a purely "ritualistic" fight, but without really trying to inflict any serious
injuries, for the same reason.
Of course, exceptions can always occur, when things escalate and go awry... especially with
rather "excitable" and "fierce" guys like H. viridiflavus...
I'd bet Dolichophis caspius and Malpolon insignitus to be even "worse" when it comes to that,
but actually I don't know. Does any of you?
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:56 pm

But why wouldn't venomous snakes bite each other? Wouldn't that be a very easy way to get rid of competitors? Or would they both bite each other and it all ends in misery?
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Re: A "ritualised" combat getting rough...

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:16 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:But why wouldn't venomous snakes bite each other? Wouldn't that be a very easy way to get rid
of competitors? Or would they both bite each other and it all ends in misery?

The idea of a male-to-male combat is to prove higher fitness without the risk of getting killed or
maimed. If lethal veapons were "allowed", even the fittest male in a population would be dead
after a few fights. Nobody wants that, so they don't do it.
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