Gender of Eirenis?

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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:39 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:No idea, Bero, but (a) subspecies are of course conjugated (or how do you call that?) like species names...

That's what I wrote.
... and(b) the guy who wrote this is more or less a god in these matters ;)

That's why I'm asking HIM, via Mario.
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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Mario Schweiger » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:06 am

Berislav Horvatic wrote:
... das lateinische Substantiv „var.“ = „Varietas“ (Varietät) ist weiblich und das Geschlecht
des Namens folgt in solchen Fällen immer dem Geschlecht dieses Begriffs und nicht dem der
Gattung.
(The latin substantive "var." = varietas is feminine and the gender of the species name in
such cases allways follows the gender of varietas and not the gender of the genus.)


Where can this statement be found "officially", as a prescribed rule? In which particular
nomenclature code, which paragraph?

Does it also apply to the infraspecific rank "forma"?

It certainly does NOT apply to subspecies, as one has e. g. Hierophis viridiflavus ssp. carbonarius,
not ssp. carbonaria, although the Latin word "subspecies" is feminine, just like "varietas" and "forma".


Bero,
no code, no rule, no paragraph!
Just simple latin grammar!

Some examples, long before the nomenclature code was established!

Ablabes modestus var. semimaculata BOETTGER, 1876 = Eirenis modestus semimaculatus
Zamenis viridiflavus var. asiana BOETTGER, 1880 = Dolichophis jugularis asianus
Coluber longissimus var. persica WERNER, 1913 = Zamenis persicus

but wrong:
Zamenis gemonensis var. asianus BOULENGER, 1920 = Dolichophis jugularis asianus

If you would use "forma" or "subspecies" it would be the same like var(ietas)!

Dendrophis pictus forma typica, COHN 1905 = Dendrophis pictus
Pseudopus apus forma ornata, BOETTGER 1881 = Pseudopus (Hyalosaurus) koellikeri

I haven't found a species with "subspecies", but if you would write (like your example) Hierophis viridiflavus carbonarius with ssp., it has to be Hierophis viridiflavus ssp. carbonaria

But who is doing this today?

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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Thomas Bader » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:30 pm

I guess that is not always true - sometimes also the genitiv is used:

Triturus vulgaris schmidtlerorum
Apathya cappadocica schmidtlerorum

In this cases genitiv plural - no?
ps I nearly failed in Latin...
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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:02 pm

Thomas Bader wrote:I guess that is not always true - sometimes also the genitiv is used:

Triturus vulgaris schmidtlerorum
Apathya cappadocica schmidtlerorum

In this cases genitiv plural - no?
ps I nearly failed in Latin...


I believe "schmidtler" is a noun here, so it stands more or less on itself, regardless of the species and genus names (cf. Zamenis situla, Podarcis tiliguerta). Whether to end with -i (genetive singular) or -orum (plural) is rather arbitrary choice of the describer, as far as I know.
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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:04 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:But who is doing this today?

Indeed and the same goes for the use of "var." with animal nomina.
One European exception leaps to mind - Lacerta agilis var. erythronotus; is correct, as this is a noun too.
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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Mario Schweiger » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:56 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Thomas Bader wrote:I guess that is not always true - sometimes also the genitiv is used:

Triturus vulgaris schmidtlerorum
Apathya cappadocica schmidtlerorum

In this cases genitiv plural - no?
ps I nearly failed in Latin...


I believe "schmidtler" is a noun here, so it stands more or less on itself, regardless of the species and genus names (cf. Zamenis situla, Podarcis tiliguerta). Whether to end with -i (genetive singular) or -orum (plural) is rather arbitrary choice of the describer, as far as I know.


Yes, schmidtlerorum is in honor of Schmidtlers - father and son!
And all these genetives have been described (as far as I know) as ssp. (without var., forma) or species, example far last Rhinechis amaliae (in honor of Dr. W. Kobelts wife Amalia) = Coronella girondica amaliae.

I have found no species with subspecies (ssp.) within the latin name. I think ssp. is "to young" for this.

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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:45 pm

Mario Schweiger wrote:Bero, no code, no rule, no paragraph! Just simple latin grammar!

You must be joking... Latin grammar can not and does not decide on formal matters of nomenclature.
If you would use "forma" or "subspecies" it would be the same like var(ietas)!

Of course NOT, regarding the subspecies names.
I haven't found a species with "subspecies", but if you would write (like your example) Hierophis viridiflavus carbonarius with ssp., it has to be Hierophis viridiflavus ssp. carbonaria

You really mean it?! On what grounds? The "ssp." is usually omitted in zoological trinomens just for brevity,
and for the simple reason that infrasubspecific ranks "varietas" and "forma" are nowadays not legitimate in
zoological nomenclature in the first place. Therefore, the third word in a trinomen is assumed to denote
the subspecies.
But who is doing this today?

Doing WHAT? Writing "ssp." explicitly in a trinomen, or caring about the ICZN? Regarding the latter, anyone
who wants to publish a scientific paper and not be rejected for trivial technical details should care about it.
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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:00 pm

Berislav Horvatic wrote:Latin grammar can not and does not decide on formal matters of nomenclature.
(...)
infrasubspecific ranks "varietas" and "forma" are nowadays not legitimate in
zoological nomenclature in the first place

As the latter statement sticks, the former seems trivial in this context, no?

Berislav Horvatic wrote:(...) or caring about the ICZN? Regarding the latter, anyone
who wants to publish a scientific paper and not be rejected for trivial technical details should care about it.

Are you considering that Mario doesn't know that? ;) Of course, he did not mean the latter. Djeez...
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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:27 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Berislav Horvatic wrote:Latin grammar can not and does not decide on formal matters of nomenclature.
(...)
infrasubspecific ranks "varietas" and "forma" are nowadays not legitimate in
zoological nomenclature in the first place

As the latter statement sticks, the former seems trivial in this context, no?

No. It was meant quite generally. Also, in this particular context, the "subspecies" actually violates the "varietas"
(and "forma"?) rule... The word is also feminine, but in this case it does not matter... So, Latin grammar is not
all there is to it. That's what I meant (and wrote).

Berislav Horvatic wrote:(...) or caring about the ICZN? Regarding the latter, anyone
who wants to publish a scientific paper and not be rejected for trivial technical details should care about it.

Are you considering that Mario doesn't know that? ;) Of course, he did not mean the latter. Djeez...

I'm no mind reader.
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Re: Gender of Eirenis?

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:33 pm

I imagined you've been around long enough to know that Mario wouldn't promote disregarding the ICZN - obviously my mistake.
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