New Italian Vipera

[Berislav Horvatic]

So first a horde of impatient people and now even no Bero with some thoughts and comments...?

Well, if you really insist,
(1) I'm a slow reader. Also, I was away in a total wilderness for 5 days. No
Internet, no cell phone signal, no nothing. A pure pleasure for the soul.
(2) At (my) first glance, the paper is clear and thorough enough.
(3) I do like the choice of the new species' name very much.
(4) I don't give a damn about Zootoca carniolica. Leave that gladly to the
interested experts, which I'm not.
(5) Maybe you shouldn't (mis)use my personal (nick)name as a PARADIGM for
whatever. I'm not sure everyone around here would find that appropriate...
Personally, I really don't give a damn. Anyhow, suit yourself.

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Allright, allright, I was only looking for some views and opinions on the new species. Rather tell us about your "(1)", instead of derailing this with voicing irritation I never meant to provoke.

[Mario Schweiger]

1) Zootoca carniolica
That's an old thing , I know it from Werner Mayer since at least 5 or 6 years or so.
But, like in many other "problems", Werner was very busy to find a solution, but much to lazy to publish the results

2) Vipera walseri
For me much to early to post something on that (have to read the paper more often and think about their drawing a conclusion

[Niklas Ban]

Hmm after teading the paper I got many many questions and for a few I got to see some individuals by myself. Why does it looks like berus and is so much closer to ursinii? Where did it come from (or what where its distribution before the ice age)? Are there more populations in other parts of the alps (like ursinii)? Is there a contact zone with berus? If yes is there hybridisation? How does Vipera walser deal with Vipera aspis aspis?

[Berislav Horvatic]

Vipera walseri
For me much to early to post something on that (have to read the paper more often
and think about their drawing a conclusion

Same here. And that's all to it, for the time being.

Rather tell us about your "(1)", instead of derailing...

Sorry, no herps encountered. Therefore, no relevant report for this forum. My biggest
success was sighting an Oriolus oriolus (male), after some years. A flash of gold, a joy
for the heart, but, unfortunately, no photo.

[Berislav Horvatic]

Why does it looks like berus and is so much closer to ursinii?

Why does a whale look so much like a fish, and is much closely related to a horse?
Please, pardon my "intrusion", or whatever you might call it... The analogy might
be far too crude, and of course it is, but it was meant just as a reminder...

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Paper says:

The genetic differentiation between V. walser and V. berus, both on mitochondrial and nuclear DNA, is beyond known values between well-established species within the same subgenus.

Don't know what more the slow readers seem to need.

I'll throw some attempted answers at Niklas's questions.

Why does it looks like berus and is so much closer to ursinii?

Wouldn't you agree that kaznakovi also isn't very ursinii-like?

Where did it come from (or what where its distribution before the ice age)?

That's the tough one.

Are there more populations in other parts of the alps (like ursinii)?

Walser is a berus isolate that has been known for a long time. There are not really any other berus isolates known. Yet, there is Monasterolo, as well as a number of museum specimens from (probably) extinct populations from the Po Plain. Too bad they didn't include those, because those sound like lowland morphs/populations. It's clear in any case that the southern Alps host several distinct, range-restricted fauna lineages.

Is there a contact zone with berus? If yes is there hybridisation?

No, not very likely. The ranges are discretely separated by most likely unfriendly habitat. There was also no sign of introgression in the genetically low-variability displaying walser.

How does Vipera walser deal with Vipera aspis aspis?

Like ursinii or berus, probably - niche segregation (too wet for aspis). And its current range may of course result from competition too (cf. the lower findings of maybe also walser, which probably also went down due to land use).

[Niklas Ban]

Why does it looks like berus and is so much closer to ursinii?

Why does a whale look so much like a fish, and is much closely related to a horse?
Please, pardon my "intrusion", or whatever you might call it... The analogy might
be far too crude, and of course it is, but it was meant just as a reminder...

This is (for me) to simplified.

I'll throw some attempted answers at Niklas's questions.

First thank you for that!

Why does it looks like berus and is so much closer to ursinii?

Wouldn't you agree that kaznakovi also isn't very ursinii-like?

Yes, for sure I would, but the coloration of kaznakovi and the pattern isn't so similar to berus like walser. For sure I have seen far to little images of V. walser.

Where did it come from (or what where its distribution before the ice age)?

That's the tough one.

Yep, I knew that nobody could tell me that, nevertheless it would be interesting.

How does Vipera walser deal with Vipera aspis aspis?

Like ursinii or berus, probably - niche segregation (too wet for aspis). And its current range may of course result from competition too (cf. the lower findings of maybe also walser, which probably also went down due to land use).

Hmm, I am not sure about that. A italian herper told me that V. aspis aspis (atra morph) is living sympatric with V. walser. For sure propably for the most part of the distribution of V. walser you are right, but there is a contact zone.

[Berislav Horvatic]

Paper says:

The genetic differentiation between V. walser and V. berus, both on mitochondrial and nuclear DNA,
is beyond known values between well-established species within the same subgenus.

Don't know what more the slow readers seem to need.

Nothing more, indeed, if one believes in this "verdict" - and why shouldn't one, after all? That's the most
important issue (regarding the publication). All the rest is just conjecturing, showing-off knowledge and
alike... But I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone to "think aloud". Mario said he would not - for the time
being - and I sided with him, but that's just a private decision, not a recommendation to anyone.

[Ruggero M.]

I've spoken about this new viper with an herpetologist friend of mine who works at the Uni of Pavia. He told me (if I remember well, the species was Rana temporaria) he has found on the Alps many isolated different population of this frog, totally identical exteriorly, but totally different as regards DNA.
With Vipera walser we have some visible differencies from Vipera berus: zig zag line is somehow interrupted, and the scales on the head are more fragmented.
Without these visible differences nobody would have thought to be in the presence of a different species. Personally, if I had seen a walser viper in the field, I would have thought it was a berus, and stop. Maybe a "particular" berus or a "particular" berus isolated population.
Species are actually artificial distinctions humans make to try to put an order in natural world and in the evolution/separations of living beings.
My question is the following: is it possible to have totally distinct "genetically determined" species, withouth even the smallest difference in exterior (fenotipical) appearance?
If the answer to this question is YES, the next thought of mine is that we have then to genetically analyze every specimen or at least every population to determine whether or not they belong to a different species...
Or my thought are simply absurd and meaningless...