Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Rok Grzelj » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:14 am

Mario Schweiger wrote:OK, coming back to interbreeding in terrariums.

Why, in nature two species dont interbreed (or very rarely only), like ammodytes and aspis in Bolzano, South Tyrol, Italy? If you keep them together in a terrarium it works much more "easy", especially if the two species are from distinct populations (for example aspis from lake Garda and ammodytes from Montenegro). It seems, snakes have no species-related foreplay (beside neck biting in some species), so what it is? Do snake species in overlaping areas have developed different pheromones, than their relatives far away? Any investigations on that? The same for the example ammodytes - xanthina or another example (but dont know if the offspring is fertile, at least partially): Macrovipera schweizeri x Daboia mauritanica.


Hybrids between ammodytes and berus are not that rare in Slovenia...another question is their offspring...surviving rates,fertility etc.
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Mario Schweiger » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:40 am

Imho, regardless of taxonomical level, the Alpine (or sensu Ursenbacher et al. Italian) berus clade does indeed seem to deserve a name, although we could argue again about data availability etc., but I'll behave.


As far as I know, there´s no morphological difference between the alpine and the northern clade berus. So, for me its better to call them all berus berus, and not to have a cryptic (sub)species more.

I believe that nikolskii was "cancelled" exactly on the basis of this data. I guess the same should go for barani? Mario?


Nikolskii is a ssp. of berus now.
When I have seen the first barani in situ (prepaired specimens, confiscated from Teynie by Turkish autorities (with the fake locality "Central Taurus mountains") and shown to us by Ibrahim Baran at the DGHT annual meeting in Frankfurt in 1988, I was asking, why these are no berus bosniensis (there was the first known patterned specimen within these three). Just from morphology, barani may be included in bosniesis, but genetic data put it more close to nikolskii, but there are also differences in the different trees (papers) - I dont know ;)

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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:03 am

Thanks for that, Mario.

Mario Schweiger wrote:As far as I know, there´s no morphological difference between the alpine and the northern clade berus. So, for me its better to call them all berus berus, and not to have a cryptic (sub)species more.


OK, but since the Alpine/Italian clade is more basal than bosniensis, then you would have to cancel bosniensis too, to maintain monophyly... :?

In my very rough and careless opinion, at least the NE Italian and Slovenian animals seem to have a somewhat broken-up zigzag like this one below. Not true for other populations (e.g. Austria?)? Or even not for that area?

Vipera berus "Alpine/Italian clade" from Slovenia
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Rok Grzelj » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:54 pm

Speciemens with broken zig-zag were found also in Switzerland,Germany and even Sweden and far east(Sakhalin)...so I dont belive the patteren tell us much about subspecies
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Mario Schweiger » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:01 pm

Jeroen, you may find adders with a bit broken zig-zag in the whole of Austria.
In Slovenia there are a few vipers with an even much more broken - and really resembling bosniensis pattern - zig-zag (I think Rok showed one in a very early threat in this forum).
But it is more the scalation morphology (double rows of suboculars - although yours had - at least one scale wide, one), fragmentation of head shields/scales and ventral and subcaudal counts. But this is only true for mountain populations.
The lowland Zagreb specimens are "only" berus berus by genetic data, as well as these from Kapela mountain.

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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Mario Schweiger » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:08 pm

Here is the threat of Rok, but unfortunately the pictures are not available anymore :oops:
http://www.fieldherping.eu/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60&p=170#p170

Rok, maybe you may upload them here to Fieldherping.eu, so we might have a few on them? ;)

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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Rok Grzelj » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:15 pm

Unfortunately the pic hosting site is gone :roll:

This one is from NW part of Slovenia...close to Austria and Italy.
nw slo berus.jpg


Your speciemen Jeroen should be from the SW part!? ;-)
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:18 pm

Nice one, Rok. Goes into the same clade as "mine".

Mario Schweiger wrote:Jeroen, you may find adders with a bit broken zig-zag in the whole of Austria.

So also those which are not part of the Italian clade? Interesting... I have never seen this in NW European animals (although I do not mean to doubt Rok's statement).

Mario Schweiger wrote:In Slovenia there are a few vipers with an even much more broken - and really resembling bosniensis pattern - zig-zag

OK, but there is bosniensis in SE Slovenia.

Mario Schweiger wrote:But it is more the scalation morphology (double rows of suboculars - although yours had - at least one scale wide, one), fragmentation of head shields/scales and ventral and subcaudal counts. But this is only true for mountain populations.

Maybe I don't understand, but mine is from a mountain population (SW Slovenia and unpublished but confirmed Italian clade animal; Rok knows it very well, because it's from one of his favourite spots).

Mario Schweiger wrote:The lowland Zagreb specimens are "only" berus berus by genetic data

? I thought not; bosniensis.
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Mario Schweiger » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:26 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Mario Schweiger wrote:Jeroen, you may find adders with a bit broken zig-zag in the whole of Austria.

So also those which are not part of the Italian clade? Interesting... I have never seen this in NW European animals (although I do not mean to doubt Rok's statement).


I have to check all my Salzburg lowland pics, but I have one or two here!

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Mario Schweiger wrote:But it is more the scalation morphology (double rows of suboculars - although yours had - at least one scale wide, one), fragmentation of head shields/scales and ventral and subcaudal counts. But this is only true for mountain populations.

Maybe I don't understand, but mine is from a mountain population (SW Slovenia and unpublished but confirmed Italian clade animal; Rok knows it very well, because it's from one of his favourite spots).


Sorry, I thought more on C and S Balkan specimens (BiH, Montenegro, Albania, Greece, etc.

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
Mario Schweiger wrote:The lowland Zagreb specimens are "only" berus berus by genetic data

? I thought not; bosniensis.


Maybe Bero will write something ;)
These data are from Dusan Jelic

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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Rok Grzelj » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:26 pm

This couple is also from SW Slovenia...but from the lowland.The "problem" is that lowland speciemens are mainly black..so the patteren is visible only on juveniles
Here I was lucky
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