Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

[Mario Schweiger]

Mario? Is this the first time (together with Gvozdik et al. 2012) renardi obtains some molecular substatiation against ursinii?

Although just a side effect, Kalyabana-Hauf et al. (2004): Phylogeny and systematics of adders (Vipera berus complex). Mertensiella 15: 7-16, showed, that "renardi" (they used eriwanensis only) is a bit different from ursinii, while Vipera anatolica (V.u.anatolica) should be the sister to all other vipers within the berus, kaznakovi and ursinii complexes (what I dont believe, for sure).

You, Mario, and everyone else, is of course also kindly invited to answer my last question - why treat all of this as 3 (or more) and not 1 species?

Do you really want to go back to Linnaeus times?
In that case (following the Ferchaud et al. tree), berus and seoanei would be one species too

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Something else - the map shows a too limited range for graeca. If you want to accept graeca at species level, you should investigate (molecular signs of) reproductive isolation. This means that I would at least like to see some graeca data from Albania. Morphology seems to fit, yes, but we do not know if that's diagnostic, so this may all be cryptic genetic stuff, no?

While less morphologically substantiated, this reminds me of the Bufo viridis splits. It was not until restricted gene flow between siculus and balearicus was proven that we/I accepted that there was a species-level split needed. Because this was not proven for siculus vs. boulengeri nor balearicus vs. viridis and the rest, we did not move forward to accept all, but preliminary accepted the Sicilians as a subspecies - Bufo boulengeri siculus - while not yet accepting the others at species level. This is the reasoning which was adopted and voted by the SEH Taxonomic Commitee, by which I of course don't mean to say that it is dogmatic in any way.

[Mario Schweiger]

Something else - the map shows a too limited range for graeca. If you want to accept graeca at species level, you should investigate (molecular signs of) reproductive isolation. This means that I would at least like to see some graeca data from Albania. Morphology seems to fit, yes, but we do not know if that's diagnostic, so this may all be cryptic genetic stuff, no?

I was woundering, why in the Ferchaud et al. paper they used 7 samples from Stavros mountain only, when they have found "graeca" in Greece at 8 locations (see map below [from the report of the Life ursinii meeting in France]).

As far as know, this "graeca" from Albania is the only one published, although some new locations of Vipera ursinii macrops in Albania have been found (Westerström, pers. comm.).

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Do you really want to go back to Linnaeus times?

You know I don't but that's hardly convincing, imho.
Not sure, if you're being serious...

If Linnaeus would have been right and all his species would correspond to restricted gene flow, monophyly, ... and all aspects which add up to my imperfect idea of what a species is, I would still follow him. If not, someone will stand up over 50 years saying "Do you really want to go back to Ferchaud times?", as a reason to treat all taxa now treated as subspecies as full species, revalidating wettsteini, etc.

Aren't most people splitters by nature, regardless of the meaning/substance of the split? If you let that happen over the next 100 years without any reservation, you end up with species for each tiny monophyletic differentiation (e.g. a new species for each Podarcis siculus island population). If we cannot agree on those standards at all, there's no point in having systematics, of course.

In that case (following the Ferchaud et al. tree), berus and seoanei would be one species too

Are levels of divergence of berus-seoanei comparable with those of ursinii-renardi? There's no horizontal scaling with the tree of Kalyabana-Hauf et al. (2004)(Fig. 2) - is branch length indicative?
(I'm also having a hard time to see where the "ursinii" samples came from on the map.)

why in the Ferchaud et al. paper they used 7 samples from Stavros mountain only, when they have found "graeca" in Greece at 8 locations

Indeed, but still you "believe" already in Vipera graeca ?

As far as know, this "graeca" from Albania is the only one published, although some new locations of Vipera ursinii macrops in Albania have been found (Westerström, pers. comm.).Mario

Only 1 published, but I remembered Edvard mentioning 3 =>
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=984&start=40/#p10569

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

!!!
This comment from Edvard feeds in to my desire for Albanian graeca data, yet unpublished so far, like Mario said...

[Rok Grzelj]

Its in human nature to make things complicated....

V.berus is still considered 1 specie from Britain to Sakhalin....a lot of work for splitters

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Having a closer look now to the Albanian ursinii paper, I´m woundering about these 60 cms

A first of N&A's characters that goes down the drain?

graeca is much more short tailed.

Mario, do you know by heart if this stands for graeca vs. all ursinii/renardi?
If morphology is supposed to be diagnostic, you'd want to have something that sets the newby apart from all the up-tree branches, right?

((BTW, I cannot seem to find where this Stavros mnt. is - close to N&A's sample site or not?))

Its in human nature to make things complicated....

Don't you mean it's in nature's nature to make things complicated?

V.berus is still considered 1 specie from Britain to Sakhalin....a lot of work for splitters

Interesting thought, although there's of course less reproductive isolation (vs. fragmented range of ursi boy and his friends).

[Mario Schweiger]

Indeed, but still you "believe" already in Vipera graeca ?

No, I dont really believe at the time! See Amphibians and Reptile database.
The same for all the boulengeri, siculus, balearicus, variabilis in Bufo (Bufotes )

Aren't most people splitters by nature, regardless of the meaning/substance of the split?

Maybe most, but not me for sure.
I tend to be more a lumper
But regarding the ursinii´s and renardi´s are full species (and all within these groups are ssp.), graece seems to be a species as well.
And when the time will come - and you have your first really renardi (not this pseudo-maybe-hybrids from the northern banks of the Danube delta) in your hands, you will share my opinion, these two (groups) are complete different vipers.

Mario, do you know by heart if this stands for graeca vs. all ursinii/renardi?

Nearly! I haven´t seen all ursinii/renardi ssp. yet, and of those I´ve seen, only a few specimens. But as far as I know today, yes.

BTW, I cannot seem to find where this Stavros mnt. is - close to N&A's sample site or not?

Same for me! Google gives Stavros mountains for Cyprus and Crete. But think these are the wrong ones!

Mario

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

I tend to be more a lumper

Ah, sorry, my mistake - I thought you said you fully agreed with Wolfgang, but I guess you meant the principle/theory and not the outcome? Same here.

Interestingly, it is also sort of a trend for people to move from splitter to lumper with increasing age.
(I hope this doesn't come off wrong, Mario - just a pure & true observation)

I guess I'm actually more of a splitter, but the main thing is that I keep struggling with the fact that there are no real rules.

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

BTW, I cannot seem to find where this Stavros mnt. is - close to N&A's sample site or not?

Same for me! Google gives Stavros mountains for Cyprus and Crete. But think these are the wrong ones!

http://www.oreivatein.com/oreivatein/pa ... nts2_9.htm
As ever so often in Greece, there seem to be at least 2 Pindos peaks by that name... One might to be about 30km north of the E92. That's about enough to disclose here.