Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

That´s the place to discuss on sytematics, distribution, etc.

Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:26 pm

Very nice, Rok!

Mario, my concepts are based on inside info from Bero, actually, but I don't feel at liberty to disclose any more than I already did.
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Rok Grzelj » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:42 pm

If Im not wrong the populations from NW Croatia are "only" berus berus...or better the alpine clade!?
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Rok Grzelj » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:10 am

I asked the author for permission to post the pic on this forum

The picture was taken in Franconia (Germany)...so not that clse to the Alps
The author says that many males from the population have this kind of patteren
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Thomas Reich » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:38 am

A broken zig-zag pattern is not uncommon in Switzerland. This is a female adder from eastern Switzerland, 1600 m ("northern clade" according to Ursenbacher et al. 2006)

kreuzotter.jpg
kreuzotter.jpg (92.22 KiB) Viewed 6716 times


If I remember it right, I was told by a friend that the "italian clade" adders found in the Engadine valley (southeastern Switzerland) look a little different in terms of body proportions (I have never seen animals from there).
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:54 am

Great illustrations, thanks!
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Wolfgang Wüster » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:37 am

Ursenbacher et al. did publish a preliminary note on differentiation between the alpine clade and other V. b. berus populations:
[url]http:pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Ursenbacher_Morphol_Diffs_Alpine_Vipera_berus_Herpetologia_Petropolitana_2003.pdf[/url]
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Mario Schweiger » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:41 pm

Sorry, I cant see any significant differences between Ursenbachers "Italian clade" = alpine clade and the northern clade
Counts of Italian clade in bold numbers
Ventrals: females: 137/139 - 153/155; males: 134/135 - 149/152
Subcaudals: females: 21/23 - 34/39; males: 29/30 - 39/42
and so on ;)

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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Rok Grzelj » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:18 pm

Agree with both of you...probably similar results can emerge also in 2 neighboring populations!?
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Re: Danube Delta ursinii are moldavica

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:20 pm

Yes, better to have something like a "usual" range (defined by percentiles) followed by min-max extremes between brackets.
(( 25% is a rather unpractical overlap if you want to use morphology for identification ))

Let's conclude that if there's something to be seen, it's not obvious?
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