Vipera ammodytes subspecies

[Gabriel Martínez]

Hi!

In a pathetic spanish TV show, one man found a "Vipera latastei" in north Spain. I´m sure that it´s an ammodytes (probably of the pet trade). But I don´t know about subspecies. Anybody can tell me the ssp?

http://www.cuatro.com/la-selva-en-casa/ ... 76795.html
(in the first 3-10 minutes)

Cheers

[Mario Schweiger]

Hi!

Yes Gabri, a LONG NOSE
And it lived in a terrarium for many month, I´m sure (probably bred in captivity) - to "fat" for a wild one
Subspecies?
The forward bent nose and rostral index point to nominate form, colour to a Montenegro specimen.

Mario

[Guillaume Gomard]

colour to a Montenegro specimen

It's not an exact science but I would have say the same

[Gabriel Martínez]

it lived in a terrarium for many month, I´m sure (probably bred in captivity) - to "fat" for a wild one
Subspecies?
The forward bent nose and rostral index point to nominate form, colour to a Montenegro specimen.

Mario

Wow! Thank you very much!!!! This is a perfect response!

I would have say the same

Thanks Guillaume!

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

heterogeneity of some ammodytes populations that makes it hard to say anything about locality etc.

Agreed. Prespes ammodytes are also extremely variable. If I would have had more disk space in 2004, I would have been able to show some

[Berislav Horvatic]

I'm sure Mario could give you the link (in his literature database) for the following paper:

S. Ursenbacher, S. Schweiger, L. Tomović, J. Crnobrnja-Isailović, L. Fumagalli, W. Mayer:
Molecular phylogeography of the nose-horned viper (Vipera ammodytes, Linnaeus (1758)):
Evidence for high genetic diversity and multiple refugia in the Balkan peninsula,
Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 46 (2008) 1116–1128

[Guillaume Gomard]

The paper can be found here: http://webpages.icav.up.pt/AP/120010/28.pdf

Ok, this specimen makes me think of what can be often seen in Montenegro but I agree with you Micha, as I said it's not exact science and you're completely right on the fact that colour variation can be important even in a restricted area so it's never a reliable criterium, it was more a choice based on a probability (people who know a little bit the genus Echis will also agree with you, for sure).
BTW, Jeroen, since you're talking about Prespes ammodytes, do you consider that they are actually meridionalis or montandoni ? I know that one answer is given in the paper attached but it's a bit controversial...

thanks

[Mario Schweiger]

For sure its hard to tell from where the specimen is, but still I would say from the Black Mountains (or close by).

Lake Prespa ammos (FYROM and Greece) belong to montandoni or meridionalis, as you like - or whom you like to follow.
My own, and also observed in the wild specimens have yellow-green to green tail underside, even brick red specimens.
Also, the rostral is higher than wide, sometimes divided, typical for these both ssp., more pronounced in montandoni. This is, why the latter mostly has a horn, bent back.
In the nominate form, the Rostrale is wider than high (Index 0,62 - 1,0), with an, in most cases undivided, Suprarostrale on top.

Mario

[Berislav Horvatic]

I'm sure Mario could give you the link (in his literature database) for the following paper

I've read the paper already in the context of another discussion and I am not sure what your point is.

My point is that guessing by noses and colours would probably lead you nowhere. Even a very thorough
study of morphometric and meristic data had led Ljiljana Tomović to an essentially wrong picture of the
vammo systematics, namely, this one:

LJILJANA TOMOVIĆ: SYSTEMATICS OF THE NOSE-HORNED VIPER (VIPERA AMMODYTES, LINNAEUS, 1758)
HERPETOLOGICAL JOURNAL, Vol. 16, pp. 191-201 (2006)

In short, I agree with what Guillaume Gomard and you said.

[Guillaume Gomard]

My own, and also observed in the wild specimens have yellow-green to green tail underside, even brick red specimens.

I did the same observation in Presa lake on several specimens.

Lake Prespa ammos (FYROM and Greece) belong to montandoni or meridionalis, as you like - or whom you like to follow.

I agree it's a mess, but I had in mind the conclusion from Ursenbacher's PhD thesis, based on mtDNA analysis:

Les données génétiques confirment aussi la présence d'un groupe distinct incluant tous les échantillons de la plus grande partie de la Bulgarie, de la Macédoine, de l'extrême sud de la Serbie ainsi que du nord et du centre de la Grèce (correspondant à V. a. montandoni).

For those who are interested, this thesis is available here (but in french): http://www.ursenbacher.ch/articles/these.pdf