New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

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New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Gabriel Martínez » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:38 pm

Hi everybody!

I got some free days last week and I visited Morocco. Althougt there was a hot wave I saw some interesting things:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabrimtnez ... 6642/show/

Some things in discussion:

- In Guelmim I saw a Malpolon monspessulanus of 1,85cm. I think it´s a female because the coloration (typical in morph/sp. saharatlanticus), but it´s too big for a female (¿?)

- The Hemorrhois of the video is algirus or hippocrepis? I found very close many hippocrepis, but for me it´s algirus (there are records of algirus at 30-50kms)

- I was looking for Daboia/Macrovipera mauritanica in many places. Rocky areas in Tata, Agadir, Ouarzazate, Agdz... spine bushes areas in Taroudant... sandy areas in Guelmim-Tantan; during morning, during evening, during night... But nothing. Just 2 DOR individuals. Mario told me this species is just probably to be found in april-may or september-october, and it was impossible in june for me. I don´t know what happen with this viper, again so different to Daboia palaestinae (very active in june). In a pool I found a subadult skin of Daboia mauritanica and a adult Malpolon female, I was looking for the viper but it doesn´t occur there, do you think it´s possible Malpolon eats Daboia (I think yes)?

- No activity of tropical species: Dasypeltis sahelensis, Boaedon fuliginosus, Bitis arietans or Naja haje. Mating season must have finished in middle june...


Many dying species. I found the snakes alive but "hitten" by a car. And some minutes after the photos they died. Really sad experiences...

I hope you enjoy with photos and videos ;) If you want to make some comment use this post or for private info to gabrimtnezmarmol@yahoo.com

Cheers

GAbri
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Matt Wilson » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:51 pm

Very nice photos, a great trip despite the unfortunate experiences with dying snakes. In Corfu in May we had to kill a Malpolon insignitus hit by a car, very sad :(

Really very interesting to see the huge Malpolon, for sure it is a female, but I have never heard of them reaching this size in European populations. The largest females of European insignitus and monspessulanus that I have seen are around 120-130cm and usually less than 100cm. So perhaps they grow large in North African populations. Interesting stuff...
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:28 am

Fantastic again !!!

Don't Malpolon females get bigger than males?

To me, the snake in the film is not algirus but hippocrepis - "horseshoe" head markings + body pattern with round spots.

I would think that Malpolon eats everything ;)
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Jürgen Gebhart » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:45 am

Great Job Gabri!
Hopefully you (or we?) will find a Moilensis alive one day!
The Cerastes vipera looks very different to the one in the Negev dunes.
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Matt Wilson » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:12 am

Nope Jeroen, most Malpolon females do not exceed 100-120cm more or less, so basically any specimen over 150cm in European populations is considered to be a male. Females always retain some form of the juvenile markings, and always have markings above the top part of the jaw below the eye. This is very clear in monspessulanus, whereas in insignitus the body markings are not quite so vivid, but sufficient enough to be able to tell a female apart from the green/grey coloured males.
So Gabri's finding is quite an interesting one! :)
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Gabriel Martínez » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:08 am

Hi Matt!!! Nice to see you in this forum :)

Like you, I think the huge Malpolon is a female. And yes, in european individuals the bigest sizes for females are 100-130cm max. And in north africa I have no info of bigest sizes in females (Schleich et al., (1996) said usually this species (males & females) reaching 2meters). And Michel Aymerich found a male (I guess) about 2,05m:
http://www.sahara-vivant.com/Circuit-Ag ... ra-DE.html

The answer I think is in Guelmim-Tarfaya. There snakes eat many fat rats (Psammomys obesus) and big mammals that are very common and snakes reach amazing sizes and there are records of Naja haje of more than 2 meters, Bitis and Daboia like monsters, Malpolon huge. Even I found this trip a DOR Malpolon moilensis about 100-110cm. The Hemorrhois hippocrepis in this areas are huge too. In a nocturnal expedition in a sand area between Guelmim and Tantan I found about 150-200 tracks of mammals, many of them actived. The densitity of preys is incredible so this should explain the big size of the snakes and the high density of snakes although they die in roads, fallen in pools, captured or killed by local people......

About the video of Hemorrhois, good answer Jeroen, and maybe is a H. hippocrepis. The horshoe mark is a characteristic of hippocrepis. The problem is that in Morocco there are individuals with round spots in algirus (and another with the typical trasversal lines, sometimes with the head with dark colour). The spots are round coloured by a white colour that I´ve never seen in hippocrepis, and the grey colour of the end is very "algirus", althouth some hippocrepis could have this colour. The head of the snake of the video seems very thin (probably with supralabials in contact with the eyes; algirus). But this horseshoe mark is too clear (hippocrepis). And when this is not totally clear, we have to think in the intermodal individuals algirus x hippocrepis very common in south Morocco. So this is a caos. In this "algirus", we can see a smooth horshoe mark... :?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabrimtnez ... 578413421/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabrimtnez ... 578413421/

Then the female Malpolon of Agadir probably ate a subadult Daboia mauritanica. Although the skin of the Daboia was not perfect and I didn´t find the head so maybe it was a Natrix maura. I found close there a DOR Daboia and there was not water in kilometers but Natrix usually appear in everyplaces, so this Daboia/NAtrix (We will never know it) was probably eaten by Malpolon. Interesting things... Jeroen you should visit north Africa soon ;)

Yes Jurgen, A dying moilensis is not good. I need a big individual spreading his neck like a cobra!!! This is a real moilensis!! Very common in Morocco, but this is my first snake "alive", and about 12 or more dead. About Cerastes vipera, guy told me in last days he prefers Cerastes cerastes of Israel than Morocco. And it´s true, except some mutila very cool
http://www.sahara-vivant.com/Photo-Cera ... es-02.html

The moroccan Cerastes cerastes are not very nice. Anyway the morph/ssp. mutila is different to all the another Cerastes in Sahara and then is "special". In future studies we could maybe discover this morph is a different subspecies (usually hornless, redish coloration, no contrast in design/unicoloured, white end of the tongue, rocky habitat selection...) or not...

But about Cerastes vipera, I have to say, the "coastal Morocco morph" are the most cool of the world. The design is simply awesome!!! Jurgen when will you visit Morocco????? ;) Post data: Lionel Messi should leave the grew-up pills and begin to eat 2 or 3 Psammomys by day XD.

Thanks guys for your comments!
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Michael Wirth » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:17 am

Hi Gabri,

very good job. Impressive pictures and a nice species list for one week!

Excellent.

Cheers
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:51 pm

Gabriel Martínez wrote:Jeroen you should visit north Africa soon ;)


Morocco is on the menu for spring 2012, in fact. :D
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby GertJan Verspui » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:28 pm

Very nice photos Gabriel, you are lucky to live so close to a lot of perfect areas!
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Re: New Morocco trip. 18-25 june

Postby Gabriel Martínez » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:39 pm

Michael Wirth wrote:Hi Gabri,

very good job. Impressive pictures and a nice species list for one week!

Excellent.


Hi Michael! And it´s a hot week in middle-final june. In april-may Morocco is the heaven!

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:Morocco is on the menu for spring 2012, in fact. :D


When you visit Morocco, Europe will never be the same... Look this agama just DOR of the last week. Very white. It´s incredible the coloration of the agamids...
Agama impalearis, white male.jpg
Agama impalearis, white male.jpg (301.47 KiB) Viewed 8860 times


GertJan Verspui wrote:Very nice photos Gabriel, you are lucky to live so close to a lot of perfect areas!


Thanks Gerjan. Yes, it´s good to live close to Morocco. It would be cooler if Daboia mauritanica would occur in Los Alcornocales and Cerastes vipera in Cabo de Gata :lol: I would be my dream.
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