Snakes basking together

France, British isles

Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Tomas Klacek » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:25 pm

Ilian Velikov wrote:By the way, has anyone observed the same thing with other european species of snakes?


Hi,
I find smooth snakes and grass snakes basking together relatively often. But have no photos, usually notice them, when grass snake loudly go off. Surprisingly they're smetimes basking together with slow worms too. I will try to take some pictures in the future. A few years ago I saw tessellata with berus.

Found only this photo, I know it's not basking, but proof they are living together in this spot (flipped artificial plate).

coronella & natrix, there was anguis too, but disapeared before I manage to take a picture.
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Julius Zidorn » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:29 pm

I´ve found my first ammodytes together with two tessellatas which disappered immediately when I saw them. It was just 20m above the lake level of Limni Mikri Prespa
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Will Atkins » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:59 pm

I guess we should distinguish between snakes of different which are basking together post-hibernation because they selected the same hibernaculum, and those (like the ones mentioned here) which seem to associate with each other during the active season. Shoot me down in flames but I wonder if the Natricine snakes (especially those with some resemblance to vipers) seek out vipers not only for the selfish herd principle (more pairs of eyes) but also because they might gain some advantage in terms of mimicry by proximity to their more dangerous cousins (or maybe this is attributing too much intelligence to a snake??)
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:27 am

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I find smooth snakes and grass snakes basking together relatively often. But have no photos, usually notice them, when grass snake loudly go off. Surprisingly they're smetimes basking together with slow worms too.


This is surprising indeed! :shock: The best defence for a Slow Worm is it's camouflage (apart from autotomy), that's why they stay still as a rock when you approach them (I've even touched them and they still don't move). However, I was wondering if they use the same tactics against all types of predators including snakes, which seek them by smell rather than sight...If they stay so close together with snakes that would eat them (like Coronella), could there be some kind of defence on a chemical level?

Shoot me down in flames but I wonder if the Natricine snakes (especially those with some resemblance to vipers) seek out vipers not only for the selfish herd principle (more pairs of eyes) but also because they might gain some advantage in terms of mimicry by proximity to their more dangerous cousins (or maybe this is attributing too much intelligence to a snake??)


You never know until someone study this...History is filled with things that people thought are impossible and then turned out to be true.
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:24 pm

I seem to remember rattlesnakes housing together with kangaroo rats in the US deserts. The fact that they snack one off every now and then seems to be balanced against the fact that they protect the rest of the rats, while an endothermic predator would wipe them out(?).
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:31 pm

Will Atkins wrote:I wonder if the Natricine snakes (especially those with some resemblance to vipers) seek out vipers not only for the selfish herd principle (more pairs of eyes) but also because they might gain some advantage in terms of mimicry by proximity to their more dangerous cousins (or maybe this is attributing too much intelligence to a snake??)


Hmmm... I think thermoregulation is the main answer regardless of time in the season. I particularly don't see what good a tiny viper would do for a big grass snake lying next to it in terms of predator avoidance. I think the stink a grass snake produces together with is death feigning show is quite the set of predator defence by itself. Also, the phenomenon seems still pretty rare. I would of course be interested and happy to change my view if anyone can throw in some reading material here, but a short search from my part didn't turn up anything. Interesting stuff, but hard to study, I think.
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Mario Schweiger » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:04 pm

another example of Pseudopus - snake together.

in the hills near Virpazar, Montenegro, April 2011
Pseud_gemo.jpg
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:14 pm

The fact that they snack one off every now and then seems to be balanced against the fact that they protect the rest of the rats


Protect them from what? I would imagine that most predators of rats would not mind snacking a snake as well - birds of prey, coyotes, other snakes, etc. Although in the case of rattlers this might be different as most animals recognize the sound warning and instinctively avoid them (Does the rattle work with predators from the air like birds of prey? I personally doubt it...) That's even more true in Europe and in the case of Anguis + Coronella where I don't see how Anguis would benefit from the presence of a lizard eating snake...or in other words I don't think Coronella would protect Anguis in any way. For me personally it seems more likely that Anguis and Coronella stay close to each other because they have very similar microhabitat requirements - both don't like direct sun, like to bask under cover, etc. So it might be possible that Anguis has developled some way of staying "invisible" to the snakes. Of course it is also very likely that Anguis don't have any protection against snakes at all, and that in the particular cases where they have been observed together the snake just wasn't hungry. however, that springs another question in my mind - is there such a thing as not hungry snake? As far as I know they are opportunistic and would eat suitable prey even if they've eaten already because they might not have another chance any time soon..

I particularly don't see what good a tiny viper would do for a big grass snake lying next to it in terms of predator avoidance.


I kind of agree with that. If anything it might be the adder benefiting from the grass snakes's much better vision. I've noticed that whenever these two species bask together it's always the grass snake that first notices an approaching human/predator and flees alarming the adder that there's danger.
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:20 pm

Ilian, you seem to think I'm just "guessing" the rattlesnake story. I should dig up the source, but if my mind doesn't trick me (and I'm pretty sure it doesn't), it's established science and not just a ghost story fantasy (in contrast to some of the ideas raised here...). On the other hand, it's not always like that either - sidewinders can also steal the home of these rats after finishing off the original inhabitants.

Ilian Velikov wrote:is there such a thing as not hungry snake? As far as I know they are opportunistic and would eat suitable prey even if they've eaten already because they might not have another chance any time soon..

As far as I know, this is incorrect for most ectotherms. A (Belgian) berus eats less than 10 mice a year. Not exactly the menu of a voracious "never enough" animal. Of course, this will be different for racers which spend much more energy on movement, but in general, I think snakes may very often disregard potential prey items because of a full stomach. Digestion also takes quite a bit, and then there's of course still the fact that you cannot fit an infinite amount of prey items into the gut of any predator, so saturation has to set in always at a certain point.

Ilian Velikov wrote:If anything it might be the adder benefiting from the grass snakes's much better vision. I've noticed that whenever these two species bask together it's always the grass snake that first notices an approaching human/predator and flees alarming the adder that there's danger.

??? Vipers are not slower (or flee less quickly) because their eyes are worse. Their venom-based defence gives them less need for a speedy take-off. Also, I'd say their physiology (and maybe even anatomy?) is most likely just different, in relation to their sit-and-wait predation mode.
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Re: Snakes basking together

Postby Ilian Velikov » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:05 am

Ilian, you seem to think I'm just "guessing" the rattlesnake story


No, no I'm not arguing against that. I'm not familiar with the publications, so I just asked the question that came to my mind. Even though that's true for the rattlesnakes and rats I don't think the case is the same with Smooth snakes and Slow worms (I thought you were somehow relating to this because that's what we were discussing)

As far as I know, this is incorrect for most ectotherms


You're right I guess. I got confused because I was thinking of a case with a captive python, which is more or less irrelevant...

Vipers are not slower (or flee less quickly) because their eyes are worse. Their venom-based defence gives them less need for a speedy take-off


That's true but I think snake's venom-based defence is their last resort, so in most cases they would prefer to flee if they can rather than waste precious venom, wouldn't they? So in this line of thoughts adders would benefit from grass snakes which would alert them of danger far before the danger has gotten close enough for the adder to use their venom. I'm not saying that's 100% true, that's just my guess...
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