Chilly Snakes

France, British isles

Chilly Snakes

Postby Ray Hamilton » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:37 pm

Since the previous reptile sightings on the 10th of this month it's been far too cold and damp for any self respecting reptiles to show themselves. Today there was heavy cloud cover for a good part of the day and a really chill wind. My wife and I decided to go out for a walk anyway hoping maybe to find some amphibian action (how our Valentines Days have changed!).

Walking past the spot where the Adders were basking last week, we were surprised to find two coiled together on the side of the bank. I believe these two were possibly the same snakes who were basking a few inches apart during the warmer afternoon on the 10th. This time they were coiled on top of each other.

From the 10th.
Image

From today.
Image

Another, well marked Adder was out on the top of the bank nearby.
Image

Walking a short distance further we noticed two snakes coiled together. This time an Adder and a small Grass Snake.
Before I took the photo the Grass Snake was coiled underneath the Adder and moved out onto the top. Unfortunately I think it sensed us watching and after about a minute slipped off into the undergrowth.
Image

The Adder remains on it's own.
Image

Pleased with our unexpected reptile activity on such a cold day we carried on. 50 yards along the bank two more snakes coiled together. Once again an Adder with a young Grass Snake.
Image

Watching from a distance, the two snakes remained coiled together with the Grass Snake more active, moving around and through the coils of the unmoving adder.

A total of six Adders were seen. 2 coiled together, 2 coiled with Grass Snakes and 2 'basking' alone.

I have flipped both species under the same ground cover but not witnessed this behavior before. On our previous visit during warmer weather no snakes were actually intertwined. Are the snakes simply trying to find the best, warmest and least windy spot which happens to be already occupied by another snake. Or, are the snakes benefiting from any heat held by it's partner's coils? I guess when there is more direct sunlight it is beneficial for the snakes to be exposing as much of themselves to the rays as possible and better to bask alone.

Anybody else seen this behavior or have any thoughts, I'd be interested to hear.
Ray Hamilton
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:43 pm
Hometown: Bournemouth
country: England

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Ilian Velikov » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:42 am

Ray Hamilton wrote:Anybody else seen this behavior or have any thoughts, I'd be interested to hear.


Hi Ray, yes, I have seen this too a couple of times in west London. I even posted a photo of it here but I can't locate the post. It is indeed interesting why they do that. I asked the same question back then... As far as I remember it was later in the year and not so cold, so I'm not sure if it has to do with thermoregulation...
Ilian Velikov
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm
Hometown: Pravets
country: Bulgaria

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Kevin Byrnes » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:34 pm

Here is a pic I took of N natrix basking on top of a Vipera berus
Image
Kevin Byrnes
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:44 am
Hometown: Maesteg
country: Wales

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Jürgen Gebhart » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:26 pm

I have a Theory, but with my english language problem, it is difficult to explain.
I try it and hope that you can follow me.
In 2012 I observed a female berus at this place.

001.jpg


She was laying at the right sight.

002.jpg


I was sitting close to it and suddenly she starts moving to the left side with heavy Tongue flicking. Obviously she was looking for something. She stayed at the left side for just a minute and crawled back to the right side. After a short time she repeats the procedure, crawled to the left and came back. And she done it again, but this time a black female was on the place at the left and the brown female crawled to her and lay at her side.

003.jpg


I observed the two lady’s for more than three month and every time I came too close and one female saw me and start to crawl away the other one followed immediately, it doesn`t matter if she saw me also or not. For my opinion is this “laying together behavior” a very good alarming system, but with some weak points, if both females had the head in the same direction it was sometimes possible to come closer than a meter before the get it.
If you see next time Snakes laying together go slowly close to them and observe what`s happened. Maybe me Theory is not that bad.
User avatar
Jürgen Gebhart
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:17 am
Hometown: Wiedergeltingen Bavaria
country: Germany

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Berislav Horvatic » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:56 pm

Jürgen Gebhart wrote:I have a Theory, but with my english language problem, it is difficult to explain.
I try it and hope that you can follow me.

Jürgen,
many thanks for the fascinating story. And I would say you actually have no "english language problem"
- you made yourself perfectly understood. (Unlike some others - but let's not provoke the lion... not
here and now.)
Berislav Horvatic
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:35 pm
Hometown: Zagreb
country: Croatia

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Kristian Munkholm » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:04 pm

We've discussed this topic before. I subscribe to the theory that bodies provide warmth, perhaps more individuals also provide a greater sum of awareness, hence more security, which species is - in this regard - irrelevant.

I see the two species together quite often, sometimes just basking next to each other, sometimes atop each other.

A couple of examples I've also shown before...

Image

In the above instance, two Natrix were moving about, crawling back and forth on top of the basking adder.

Image

These two were basking like this with a second female adder immediately next to them.

Image

This last one is more or less o/t. I just like the pic and pounce on every chance to post it ;)

Finally, my perhaps favourite instance is one I don't have pics of. I accidentally spooked a pile of three basking Natrix. When they dsipersed they revealed a neonate adder that had been completely hidden underneath the pile.
Kristian Munkholm
 
Posts: 457
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 2:04 pm
Hometown: Copenhagen
country: Denmark

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Ray Hamilton » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:48 pm

Thanks for the comments.
I did wonder if there had been some discussion on this subject previously but couldn't find it on the forum.

As Jurgen suggests it is likely snakes laying together may be a good alarm system but I think it may be more than that. From the photos it appears Jurgen's snakes are more laying together than coiled around each other.
My limited observations (only two occasions) found the snakes laying entwined on the very chilly day but apart on the slightly warmer one. With no scientific reasoning I'm thinking it must be more about keeping warm.

To counteract that, Ilian's observations in London were "later in the year and not so cold..."
(Not sure of the temperatures when Kevin's picture was taken.)

Kristian's post seems to sum it all up
" I subscribe to the theory that bodies provide warmth, perhaps more individuals also provide a greater sum of awareness, hence more security, which species is - in this regard - irrelevant."
Thanks for providing the excellent photos.

Do other species coil together in this way, anyone got more photos please?
Ray Hamilton
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:43 pm
Hometown: Bournemouth
country: England

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:11 pm

The older thread is here =>
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1619

No idea if it's any good, but I find Jürgen's 'alarm hypothesis' rather appealing...

(It also contains another open question for a separate debate perhaps: how does eyesight differ between European snake species?)
Jeroen Speybroeck
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:18 am
Hometown: Merelbeke
country: Belgium

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Jeroen Speybroeck » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:22 pm

Ray Hamilton wrote:Do other species coil together in this way, anyone got more photos please?


aspis + Coronella
http://www.sjf.ch/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ustair.pdf

Evidence of different species hibernating together seems more common, but I guess that makes sense (because that's more likely to be all about warmth)?
Jeroen Speybroeck
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:18 am
Hometown: Merelbeke
country: Belgium

Re: Chilly Snakes

Postby Ilian Velikov » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:21 am

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:The older thread is here =>
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1619


Thanks Jeroen! So I checked last night and I've taken these photos in July. So I don't think it was about warmth and I'd also subscribe to Jurgen's theory. The more eyes looking out for danger the better. The question about snakes eyesight is very relevant here indeed. Generally it would make sense that predators that actively seek and hunt their prey (e.g. colubrids) would have better eyesight than ambush predators that detect prey by scent and/or movement. So we could speculate that this is some sort of symbiosis where the adder benefits from the grass snake's better eyesight and the grass snake benefits from the adder's "reputation" as a dangerous venomous animal. But then in areas where these two co occur with other snake species this would mean they are able to distinguish between species, which this photo of the aspis basking with Coronella proves is not the case. If anything the aspis should instinctively avoid Coronella which are know to eat vipers despite that in this case size would have prevented this. But what about further south? Any snake that chooses to bask on top of a Malpolon or Dolichophis would soon realise its huge mistake...
Ilian Velikov
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm
Hometown: Pravets
country: Bulgaria

Next

Return to Western Europe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests