Some summer herps

[Guillaume Gomard]

Thanks for your reply.

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

What is the difference between a rare alien species and a rare native species?

Seriously?

Do you want to "save" species in spots outside their natural range? If they cannot sustain themselves within their natural range, you might just as well put them all in a zoo, imho. Or in terraria in everyone's living room

rare alien: irrelevant for the natural survival of the species & even potentially dangerous of becoming invasive, thus detrimental to native fauna and/or flora
<=>
rare native: (given the state of nature in our part of the world) potentially vulnerable

Do you want to start protecting every introduced population? There's a list of hundreds of exogenous plant and animal species which have been observed on 1 or 2 sites only, in Flanders (N Belgium) alone. Feel free to come over and protect them all.

Now, I know that "even potentially dangerous of becoming invasive, thus detrimental to native fauna and/or flora" is hardly applicable in this case - I don't suspect this species will spread throughout Germany competing with endogenous newts or whatever. On the other hand, Speleomantes italicus is not particularly rare within its natural range, thus a German introduction is hardly going to be "The Ark".

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

Also, will you protect every single population of every single species that is released by any (stupid & irresponsible) animal keeper? If I release a couple of Andrias in a brook in the Black Forest, some Chioglossa in Liguria, [imagination going wild here], some Triturus carnifex in the Netherlands [real-live example], will you protect all of them?

[Kamil Szepanski]

They are already protected by FFH, so I don't have to do that myself. Unfortunately we found strong marks of search-activity at our visits, so we don't want to publish it wildly. As they can not spread there this easily, it is nice to have them and not necessary to collect them...or not? Do you fear another "Triturus vulgaris toepferi"?

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

They are already protected by FFH, so I don't have to do that myself.

Not really true, as the Habitat Directive applies only within the species' natural range, as I seem to remember learning on this forum from Liam...

My view is - people put them there, so I would not care if people take them away again. Of course, if they don't harm the ecosystem, it's fun.

[Kamil Szepanski]

Hi Jeroen,

so,it would be legal to collect them there? According to wisia.de they are only protected by FFH...

[Kamil Szepanski]

missed a column, the other species are protected by more than FFH, but italicus is not listed at all...

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

It is listed in Annex IV, but not in Annex II.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/legislation/habitatsdirective

Protection of species - p.9, Article 12 =>
"1. Member States shall take the requisite measures to establish a system of strict protection for the animal species listed in Annex IV
(a) in their natural range, prohibiting:
(a) all forms of deliberate capture or killing of specimens of these species in the wild;
(b) deliberate disturbance of these species, particularly during the period of breeding, rearing, hibernation and migration;
(c) deliberate destruction or taking of eggs from the wild;
(d) deterioration or destruction of breeding sites or resting places.
2. For these species, Member States shall prohibit the keeping, transport and sale or exchange, and offering for sale or exchange, of specimens taken from the wild, except for those taken legally before this Directive is implemented.
3. The prohibition referred to in paragraph 1 (a) and (b) and paragraph 2 shall apply to all stages of life of the animals to which this Article applies.
4. Member States shall establish a system to monitor the incidential capture and killing of the animal species listed in Annex IV (a). In the light of the information gathered, Member States shall take further research or conservation measures as required to ensure that incidental capture and killing does not have a significant negative impact on the species concerned."

Michael, can you explain what you mean?

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

So...

it would be legal to collect them there?

I'm not sure, but from a European legal perspective, I think yes...

[Jeroen Speybroeck]

I've checked with a colleague of mine, a "Natura2000 professional", who confirmed what Liam wrote earlier = there is no European legal ground for protection in this case. If it was up to me, I would ask the relevant authorities for an exception permit and catch all of them. All too often, you only known that a species is harmful for the native ecosystem when it's too late. I know that it can be fun to have such beautiful animals at your doorstep and that this case is most likely of limited impact (if even persisting in the long run), but better safe than sorry.