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A friend found (last spring) what looks like a helveticus x vulgaris hybrid...

http://www.natuurfotografen.org/forum/v ... 17&t=14804

(( More here, for those who haven't seen this yet =>
http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/hyb ... c4263.html ))

Interesting!

see here and the link within too
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=437

They all seem to look quite different to me. The Belgian one does seem to look a lot more like L. v. meridonalis than the ones found in the UK.

Yes, these hybrids are quite interesting.

Jeroen, can you elaborate a bit on why that Belgian one is a hybrid. Apart from the webbing on the hind feet it looks quite like L.v.graecus! The filament, the smooth dorsal crest, the lateral crests. Could it be an introduction? Although these are true for helveticus,too....

By the way, this makes me wonder is there any work done on L.vulgaris subspecies? The morphological differences between vulgaris and graecus are as many (if not more) as between vulgaris and helveticus; graecus might as well turn out to be another species.

Liam Russell wrote:see here and the link within too
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=437

Thanks for refreshing our memories!

Ilian Velikov wrote:Jeroen, can you elaborate a bit on why that Belgian one is a hybrid. Apart from the webbing on the hind feet it looks quite like L.v.graecus! The filament, the smooth dorsal crest, the lateral crests. Could it be an introduction? Although these are true for helveticus,too....

After some discussion...
In general, dorsal pattern of male graecus is much heavier and the animals are darker. Separation of colours on lower part of tail usually vaguer in graecus. Dorsal crest doesn't run as long towards the front in graecus. In meridionalis, crest is usually even smaller, I think. I rule out aberrant vulgaris mainly on the presence of dorsolateral ridges.

Ilian Velikov wrote:By the way, this makes me wonder is there any work done on L.vulgaris subspecies? The morphological differences between vulgaris and graecus are as many (if not more) as between vulgaris and helveticus; graecus might as well turn out to be another species.

I know there's some new stuff I still need to dig in to, but I believe this still stands => http://vipersgarden.at/PDF_files/PDF-1972.pdf

"Dubois and Raffaëlli (2009) elevated L. v. graecus and L. v. meridionalis to species level, based on the results of Babik et al. (2005). (...)
Indeed, even while both graecus and meridionalis (in addition to several other Anatolian and Caucasian
subspecies) are distinct in molecular (mtDNA: Babik et al. 2005, nuclear DNA: Kalezić 1983; Kalezić and
Tucić 1984) and morphological (Schmidtler and Franzen 2004) features (however, mainly based on male
secondary sexual characters - Raxworthy 1990, but see Pellarini and Lapini 2000), Babik et al. (2005)
revealed high levels of mtDNA introgression in contact zones between several subspecies/lineages, including
both graecus and meridionalis, and a general lack of concordance between subspecies limits, defined on the
basis of mtDNA and morphological data. Although L. v. meridionalis is represented by a single clade in
peninsular Italy (albeit represented by only two samples), Istrian and Slovenian populations which have been
attributed to this taxon based on morphology and allozymes (Schmidtler and Franzen 2004), seem to belong to
L. v. vulgaris according to mtDNA data (Babik et al. 2005). Concerning L. v. graecus, the current northern
parts of its distributional range seems to be introgressed by populations related to L. v. vulgaris, while Corfu
represents a relictual lineage and sampling is lacking from central parts of southern Greece. Thus, despite a
high level of mtDNA divergence and evidence of ancient diversification events between some subspecies in
L. vulgaris (Babik et al. 2005), the available data do not allow drawing definite conclusions on these taxa. We
therefore refrain from accepting graecus and meridionalis as full species until additional data on contact
zones and wider geographical sampling of these taxa are presented."

In general, dorsal pattern of male graecus is much heavier and the animals are darker

I woudn't consider colouration that much as graecus do come lighter sometimes - http://www.biolib.cz/en/image/id88343/
However the crest length makes sence.

I read a bit about the distribution of graecus and I was wondering why usually only Greece and FYROM are mentioned when it's found in southern Bulgaria as well.
In fact a few years ago (when my knowledge on newts was not that good) I found a vulgaris individual far more to the north from the known Bulgarian locations and I remember noticing the filament on its tail and the dark hind feet but I didn't know what that meant back then....and there's no helveticus or any other Lissotriton there to interbreed with. I have to check that population again when I get the chance.

Thanks for the info on the subspecies!

Ilian Velikov wrote:

In general, dorsal pattern of male graecus is much heavier and the animals are darker

I woudn't consider colouration that much as graecus do come lighter sometimes - http://www.biolib.cz/en/image/id88343/
However the crest length makes sence.

You are right - there's of course a lot of variation. It's definitely not as clear-cut as we might like. Yet, still, there are spots on crest and flanks in your example that are lacking in the Belgian hybrid

Indeed, Ilian, graecus occurs in Bulgaria, as well as Albania and in fact quite a bit further up north along the Adriatic, as L.v. dalmaticus has (or should have) been placed in synonymy with graecus, if I remember well.

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:In meridionalis, crest is usually even smaller, I think.

Checked now, and that's not always really true as well...

I guess we will have to try to relocate that Belgian animal next spring and take a sample...

Indeed, Ilian, graecus occurs in Bulgaria, as well as Albania and in fact quite a bit further up north along the Adriatic

Thanks for that info, I didn't know. So, I'm not mad thinking that there might be graecus further north in Bulgaria, too.

I guess we will have to try to relocate that Belgian animal next spring and take a sample...

I'd love to hear what the results are if you do. However, even if you know the location it would be hard to relocate the same individual, wouldn't it?
I wonder if there are other hybrid individuals from the same spawn = is the survival rate of the hybrids the same as 'normal' animals ?
It will definitely make your job easier if there are others.

Not easy, but the RAUK link mentions a hybrid that revisited a garden pond for several consecutive years, let's pray

In the mean time, I have checked Griffiths's book - the hybrid depicted in there looks more like the Belgian one than any others I've seen so far (on pictures), e.g. vulgaris-like head pattern and same kind of hindfoot webbing.